Democratic National Convention '08

[3894]

Originally Posted by Moonliner

Somehow Obama managed to pull himself up without all these expensive programs he says we need.

So how about you cut all the fat out of the budget like you say and stop there. Stop collecting money you don't need and let the people keep it. That way they can rise or fall to the limits of their own ability.

He said his mother and he had to go on food stamps. He said he and Michelle got student loans because education got them where they were. He said once in the biographical film and once in the speech that I/we are our brothers'/sisters' keeper.

[Moonliner]

Originally Posted by 3894

He said his mother and he had to go on food stamps. He said he and Michelle got student loans because education got them where they were. He said once in the biographical film and once in the speech that I/we are our brothers'/sisters' keeper.

No one said the American dream is easy. It some cases it takes hard work and sacrifice, but it is possible for anyone with the programs we have now. Obama is a shining example of that.

I had to put myself through college with no support from anyone. It was tough as hell to work at a crappy job and be a full time student but I managed. Short term suffering for long term goals. It's a skill that many in this country seem to lack. They think entitlement programs will be a substitute for hard work.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Moonliner

I had to put myself through college with no support from anyone. It was tough as hell to work at a crappy job and be a full time student but I managed. Short term suffering for long term goals. It's a skill that many in this country seem to lack.

Have you compared the average salary of the kinds of jobs that a college student can hold to the current cost of college? Has, since you went through school, the cost of college risen at the same rate as the compensation for jobs that are getable by people with only a high school diploma and who need flexible schedules?

[Moonliner]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Have you compared the average salary of the kinds of jobs that a college student can hold to the current cost of college? Has, since you went through school, the cost of college risen at the same rate as the compensation for jobs that are getable by people with only a high school diploma and who need flexible schedules?

Which brings up another point. College is not for everyone. Everyone should be able to attend a college but not everyone should. If your dream is to find a cure to cancer, college is the place to be. If your dream is to drive a truck Harvard would be a bad investment. There is the perception in this country that everyone wants to go to college and be a doctor or rocket scientist. That's just not the case. A very large number of people want to drive a truck or punch an eight hour day making car parts and go home. I know a lot of these people. They look at me with a blackberry strapped to my side 24/7, carrying a laptop with me on vacation and only saying in hotels with Internet access and say man, your life sucks (a direct quote).

It's not just about money. It's about having the freedom to choose what you want. Obama speaks of opportunity, I like opportunity. But I also like keeping what I earn.

[BarTopDancer]

Originally Posted by Moonliner

Which brings up another point. College is not for everyone. Everyone should be able to attend a college but not everyone should. If your dream is to find a cure to cancer, college is the place to be. If your dream is to drive a truck Harvard would be a bad investment. There is the perception in this country that everyone wants to go to college and be a doctor or rocket scientist. That's just not the case. A very large number of people want to drive a truck or punch an eight hour day making car parts and go home. I know a lot of these people. They look at me with a blackberry strapped to my side 24/7, carrying a laptop with me on vacation and only saying in hotels with Internet access and say man, your life sucks (a direct quote).

Sadly to do nearly anything besides drive a truck or work retail you have to have a degree. It's no secret I hate school. The only reason I went back is so I could have that stupid piece of paper which in theory will get me more money. I work in IT, I am not learning one damn thing about IT in school. One could say I'm learning how to "multi-task" but I already knew how. What I'm really learning is I'm busting my ass and hating life so I can have a stupid piece of paper that has nothing to do with my field so I can then stress about getting a job that will pay me more money, since I won't be getting a raise from my current job after I graduate.

Vocational training is no longer acceptable in most places. Anything less than a Bachelor degree will put you at the bottom of a stack of resumes for a corporate like job, even entry level. Many companies are requiring a BA/BS to be hired on entry level.

[Moonliner]

Originally Posted by BarTopDancer

Sadly to do nearly anything besides drive a truck or work retail you have to have a degree. It's no secret I hate school. The only reason I went back is so I could have that stupid piece of paper which in theory will get me more money. I work in IT, I am not learning one damn thing about IT in school. One could say I'm learning how to "multi-task" but I already knew how. What I'm really learning is I'm busting my ass and hating life so I can have a stupid piece of paper that has nothing to do with my field so I can then stress about getting a job that will pay me more money, since I won't be getting a raise from my current job after I graduate.

Vocational training is no longer acceptable in most places. Anything less than a Bachelor degree will put you at the bottom of a stack of resumes for a corporate like job, even entry level. Many companies are requiring a BA/BS to be hired on entry level.

I think what you mean is that there are very few jobs you would want to do that do not require a degree. There is no end of jobs that do not require a degree it's just that most of them either pay poorly or are unpleasant.

You have chosen to better yourself. To take a shot a landing a job that not only pays well but that you actually want to do. You're not waiting for some government handout to pave the way for you. You're stressing and suffering now for what you think is right in the future. You have a vision and you are working towards it. Even allowing for the fact that what you are studying is not related to IT the journey of getting your degree shows a prospective employer that you are willing to preserver. It sorts you out from the chaff. You rock girl.

While you may not see it now, looking for a job with once you have experience AND a nice fresh degree in your hand is actually a lot of fun.

Then once you have made it through, you have the job of your dreams and you are making a good living (if just), how much of that are you going to want to give back to the government so that they can allow individuals without your drive or ambition to enter college? How many of them will fall by the wayside when the figure out what a pain in the arse it is to actually work for a degree?

[BarTopDancer]

Originally Posted by Moonliner

I think what you mean is that there are very few jobs you would want to do that do not require a degree. There is no end of jobs that do not require a degree it's just that most of them either pay poorly or are unpleasant.

You have chosen to better yourself. To take a shot a landing a job that not only pays well but that you actually want to do. You're not waiting for some government handout to pave the way for you. You're stressing and suffering now for what you think is right in the future. You have a vision and you are working towards it. Even allowing for the fact that what you are studying is not related to IT the journey of getting your degree shows a prospective employer that you are willing to preserver. It sorts you out from the chaff. You rock girl.

While you may not see it now, looking for a job with once you have experience AND a nice fresh degree in your hand is actually a lot of fun.

Then once you have made it through, you have the job of your dreams and you are making a good living (if just), how much of that are you going to want to give back to the government so that they can allow individuals without your drive or ambition to enter college? How many of them will fall by the wayside when the figure out what a pain in the arse it is to actually work for a degree?

Frankly, I think it's complete BS that I need a degree to do my job, where if I was born 3 years earlier, or taken a slightly different path out of high school I wouldn't. I'm not stressing and suffering now so I can do what I think is right for the future. I am stressing and suffering now instead of doing it 5 years ago because I need that stupid fvcking piece of paper to get a job (even doing what I'm doing now) and not be overlooked for someone with a degree and no experience. It's complete BS. People with years of experience and no degree are now passed up for people with no experience and a degree.

I love to learn. I hate school. That's why I really didn't peruse college after high school, or one of the reasons why. I resent having very little free time because companies aren't willing to take experience anymore.

And in 20 years when everyone has a Masters degree I'll be forced to go back to school, like so many people who don't have a BA/BS degree but have 20+ years of experience are being forced to now.

When everyone has a degree, no one is special.

I think Europe and other countries have it right. You don't have to pursue a degree from a university to be successful. Trade school and other forms of higher learning are acceptable and not looked down upon there.

[Morrigoon]

Originally Posted by Moonliner

While you may not see it now, looking for a job with once you have experience AND a nice fresh degree in your hand is actually a lot of fun.

I disagree.