"Why Believe in God" ad campaign

[Alex]

Originally Posted by David E

In my case I feel the same. But you and I have been pretty lucky. For millions, this is not the case.

So basically it boils down to "we need religion because all those other horrible people aren't as enlightened as you and I are and something needs to rein them in"?

[David E]

Originally Posted by Alex

So basically it boils down to "we need religion because all those other horrible people aren't as enlightened as you and I are and something needs to rein them in"?

No, no, I am saying that Euro and I have had lives with the opportunity to give meaning to and many others have not. See the first post in the British Bus ads thread. It's about the comfort of a existence of a reason for un-explained misfortune, even if the reason is not understandable at present.

[David E]

Just saw a news item that illustrates my point about the dangers of moral relativism of Western European Secularism better than I ever could. I should be gleeful about how clear this is if it weren’t so tragic:

The traditional annual Christmas message by the Queen of England is apparently followed up by an “opposing viewpoint” kind of counter message on British TV Ch. 4. You would think that the college educated, highly paid, culturally enlightened Ch. 4 intelligencia would have in their international peer group someone who could articulate a compelling alternate message of compassion and goodwill to that of the outdated, God-associated Queen. You guys on LOT do pretty well, and you have day jobs besides.

So who do they pick for 2008? Mr. Compassion himself:.........Mahmoud Ahmadinejad!

The less educated who only have common sense to rely on, might ask why the execs would make such a wrong choice for their cause of tolerance for alternate views. Oh, but wait, who are they to judge what’s right or wrong? That would be arrogant and presumptuous.

G.K. Chesterton said: “When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing, they believe in anything”.

And dude, that s**t’s f**ked up right there.

[Ghoulish Delight]

So you're anti free speech?



By the way, did you happen to see his message, or read a transcript? He sounds like he'd make a pretty good ally for you as he pretty much said exactly what you've been saying in this thread.



ETA: I've just been reading it a bit more thoroughly. Yeah, I agree with you. Total dangerous not job that one:

Jesus, the Son of Mary, is the standard-bearer of justice,
of love for our fellow human beings, of the fight against tyranny,
discrimination and injustice.

All the problems that have bedevilled humanity throughout the ages
came about because humanity followed an evil path and disregarded the message of the Prophets.

...

The crises in society, the family, morality, politics, security
and the economy which have made life hard for humanity and
continue to put great pressure on all nations have come about
because the Prophets have been forgotten, the Almighty has been
forgotten and some leaders are estranged from God.

Yeesh, let's silence that evil.

[David E]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

By the way, did you happen to see his message, or read a transcript? He sounds like he'd make a pretty good ally for you as he pretty much said exactly what you've been saying in this thread.

ETA: I've just been reading it a bit more thoroughly. Yeah, I agree with you. Total dangerous not job that one:

Yeesh, let's silence that evil.

I am glad that the content of Ahmadinejad's speech was benign as you pointed out. But it has little bearing on who he really is and what he represents. Even a stopped clock is right two times a day.

My point was not about him anyway, but about how the media intelligencia has no moral clue. Why can't a tradition like their own country's Christmas message stand on its own instead of being deconstructed and countered? I've been to the Ch 4 HQ in London and it's an architectural masterpiece. These guys are literally some of the most well off and privileged in the history of the world but they must not appreciate that fact; they ignore the culture that made so much possible for them, as they seek in so many ways to counter and downgrade it.

[flippyshark]

Originally Posted by David E

G.K. Chesterton said: “When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing, they believe in anything”.

I'm afraid Chesterton is full of it with this one. On the contrary, people who stop believing in God very often do so because they have learned to apply critical thinking. The same reasoning that makes Santa Claus, astrology, Scientology and sasquatch doubtful is finally applied to the cherished notions of ones upbringing, and the result is the putting away of childish things.

There are some who abandon their childhood religion in favor of some other non-rational substitute - eastern religion, The Secret, feng shui, chakras, you name it. But these are not the secularists. These are (to generalize) supernaturally inclined new-agers, who have redefined god and continue to search for things mystical, magickal, transcendent, etc. I don't want to upset anyone here who fits this broad category, but these people often do "believe in anything." (They are often wonderful, life-loving folk, in spite of or even because of their embrace of the silly.)

On the whole, those who have reasoned their way rationally out of god belief are inclined to value science, experience wonderment at our ever-growing (but long ways to go) knowledge of the universe as it is, and find meaning on their own, without recourse to having it spoon fed to them. Chesterton's little wheeze doesn't sting, because it doesn't display much understanding.

And wow, the counter-programming of Ahmedinejad single-handedly demolishes the idea of Western European Secularism? Sheesh. I hardly think giving this doofus a brief forum is tantamount to surrender. Indeed, I suspect it will steel the resolve of many secular people to oppose his brand of theocratic bloodlust.

Anyway, David E, in the spirit of late holiday generosity, here is an atheist who may have some sympathy with your view. You're welcome.

[€uroMeinke]

In preparation for our Bollywood New Years, I started delving into Hindu theology and find it fascinating in how it compares to the competing Monotheism in our culture. First off, this notion of "God" as a "lawgiver" (well at least setting and establishing moral and ethical guideleines) seems kind of fuzzy in a pantheon - as the God's themselves seem subject moral and ethical judgement and face consequences for their actions. Secondly, with millions of God's already, what's one more? It seems pantheistic thinking sort of promotes multi-culturalism. I'm sort of coming to the conclusion that if we decide to adopt and promote a religion a pantheistic one trumps monotheism in many ways.

I think one of the problems with monotheism is defining just what this "God" is - Creator, Lawgiver, Judge, Father, Sacrifice, Watch Maker, Santa, Energy, Mysterium Tremedum, etc.. I've had several occasions where people have argued that I can't possibly "really" be an atheist, because I held some belief (I don't think an atheist necessarily has to be a nihilist) but whatever.

Before we can discuss a beleif in God, I think we need to define just what that God is we are believing in. As for me, I'll align with Nietzsche and ask for a God that can dance - Shiva be praised, Dance Nataraja Danace!