"Why Believe in God" ad campaign

[David E]

Originally Posted by Alex

That's a false choice you've set up. Let me try:

a) The physical world is all there is, and I got shafted. But I'm going to definitely die soon if I just lie here instead of working hard to stay healthy and getting the most out of what I have left

b) there is part of me with a purpose that transcends my physical health so I'm just going to lie here and die. If given the opportunity, I will give the gift of such transcendent purpose to that cutie over there by having unprotected sex. If god doesn't want her to die, he'll protect her. If he doesn't, she's just experiencing her purpose. Oh the joy of giving that to her.

Come on, believing in an afterlife doesn't mean you don't do what you can to sustain yourself physically. You do have a body and have incarnated for a reason after all. It's real impact is in alleviating the mental burden of the things you CAN'T change.

And I never meant that non-believers all have a bad attitude, only that it is more likely for them to, and for logical reasons.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by David E

And I never meant that non-believers all have a bad attitude, only that it is more likely for them to, and for logical reasons.

I think most of us are arguing it's less likely, for logical reasons.

[David E]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Israelis and Palestinians are killing each other. Why? You can trace it right back to the fact that both sides are certain that their religion gives them justifiable claim to a chunk of desert and that any deaths resulting are a small price to pay for doing god's work. And if you think that's just from the Palestinian side, you are sorely mistaken.

I know you are coming from a good place on this and you want to be objective with regard to both sides (as do I), and that there are two sides to every story. But the reality in this case is that the two sides are very different:

The Israelis repeatedly say they want peace and a two state solution. They have put their money where their mouth is and have done various "land for peace" deals including the Gaza pull-out of 2005 where their army forcibly removed Jewish settlers.

Hamas repeatedly has said it does not want a two state solution and that they want Israel gone completely. They have also put their money where their mouth is.

I have to believe what the two parties themselves say since their actions back them up.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by David E

The Israelis repeatedly say they want peace and a two state solution. They have put their money where their mouth is and have done various "land for peace" deals including the Gaza pull-out of 2005 where their army forcibly removed Jewish settlers.

BTW, that would be the leftist, secular, forces in Knesset that have made negotiation with Palestinians the predominant position of Israel. The right wing religious parties continue to insist that force is the only answer.

[David E]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

BTW, that would be the leftist, secular, forces in Knesset that have made negotiation with Palestinians the predominant position of Israel. The right wing religious parties continue to insist that force is the only answer.

I didn't say they didn't think force might be necessary, only that they want a two-state solution and peace. As you say, they differ among themselves as to how to achieve that. The problem with this leftist ideal is that negotiation only works when both parties have a similar frame of reference/values. Gandhi and MLK's peaceful resistance worked with the British Empire and in the US because they were appealing to a common sense of decency of those regimes, whereas it would not have worked against a Hitler or at Tiannaman Square.

So too negotiation alone can't work with Hamas - what is there to negotiate when they want nothing less than the destruction of Israel (as they themselves say), and are willing to die for their cause?

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by David E

So too negotiation alone can't work with Hamas - what is there to negotiate when they want nothing less than the destruction of Israel (as they themselves say), and are willing to die for their cause?

Their religious cause.

But that's exactly my point. Israel knows full well they can claim they want peace until they are blue and white in the face and never have that bluff called. But rest assured that if it ever came down to it, there'd be more than enough of them wanting to wipe Palestineans off the map right back at them.

ETA: Restating my point slightly and succinctly - if the truly religious segment of Israel held the power, there would be no talk of a two state solution.

[David E]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Restating my point slightly and succinctly - if the truly religious segment of Israel held the power, there would be no talk of a two state solution.

There are some hard-core religious settlers, but as far as I know they are within the 1948 borders and do not advocate the genocide and destruction of any Palestinian nation. Do you have some representative quotes or news stories to back up your charges of this?

I am not saying there is not bad religion; there obviously is. I am saying that the fix for this is good religion, not no religion.

Recent news item on the subject for those of you who rely on scientific studies (80 yrs in this case) to state what is obvious to many of us:

By JOHN TIERNEY
Published: NY Times, December 29, 2008

If I’m serious about keeping my New Year’s resolutions in 2009, should I add another one? Should the to-do list include, “Start going to church”?

This is an awkward question for a heathen to contemplate, but I felt obliged to raise it with Michael McCullough after reading his report in the upcoming issue of the Psychological Bulletin. He and a fellow psychologist at the University of Miami, Brian Willoughby, have reviewed eight decades of research and concluded that religious belief and piety promote self-control.

This sounded to me uncomfortably similar to the conclusion of the nuns who taught me in grade school, but Dr. McCullough has no evangelical motives...His professional interest arose from a desire to understand why religion evolved and why it seems to help so many people. Researchers around the world have repeatedly found that devoutly religious people tend to do better in school, live longer, have more satisfying marriages and be generally happier.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by David E

Come on, believing in an afterlife doesn't mean you don't do what you can to sustain yourself physically.

It certainly can. Or that you don't do everything you might otherwise. But I'm not saying my choice is real. Just that it is as flawed and incomplete as the one you presented.

You do have a body and have incarnated for a reason after all. It's real impact is in alleviating the mental burden of the things you CAN'T change.

You're imposing what you believe on everybody else. Who will decide which version of this belief is the one that is best for everyone to be tricked into believing (because they do have to be tricked; you can't just choose to believe something).

And I never meant that non-believers all have a bad attitude, only that it is more likely for them to, and for logical reasons.

I disagree with the logic you've presented in this thread.