Star Trek - Page 7

Alex · 05-10-2009, 07:34 PM

It isn't that the time travel stuff doesn't make sense. As far as such goes it was handled pretty well (though it isn't explained why sometimes the Red Matter black holes create time portals and other times it just destroys everything (unless Vulcan -- and Nero once again -- have simply been shipped to another time).

It is the rest of the story that is stupid: the fact that Spock alone was trying to save Romulus, that a mining ship is super armed and powerful, that once in the past Nero spends 25 years waiting for Spock so he can exact revenge rather than going to the still existing Romulus and beginning the process of saving it, that the entire Federation fleet is in the Lawrentian system but whatever the reason for that is, it goes unmentioned, that despite this there are a dozen uncrewed ships including the new flagship vessel just waiting to be crewed by the entire student population of Starfleet Academy, that Vulcan and Earth apparently have zero dedicated defences other than starships and yet still sent their entire fleet to one system off somewhere else, that Vulcan is just 8 minutes away from earth, that the entire idea of a spaceship is rendered obsolete by the super-teleportation deus ex machinaed into existence by Spock Prime. That even though Vulcan was about 8 minutes from Earth (or some ridiculously small number given by Checkhov in his shipwide mission briefing) Earth was at least a few hours from Vulcan (since that is how long it took the Enterprise to get back), that a moon orbiting Vulcan is somehow an isolated Federation outpost manned not by Vulcans but by a lone super-genius engineer and his own personal Muffit, that Nero put Spock on that moon rather than letting him watch from the Death Star so he could gloat, that a device that destroys through black holes apparently requires first digging a hole to the center of the object since a black hole simply put on the surface apparently wouldn't be destructive enough (and one wonders how exactly Spock was going to dig a hole to the center of a star so that he could save Romulus), that apparently Romulan miners like to keep their ship decks under several inches of water, that when an Academy cadet is particularly brave he will be given command of the flagship vessel of the fleet.

Compared to everything else the time travel and its implications was a paragon of reality and clarity. But it was a fun ride. A stupid ride with characters I am very fond of, but a fun one.

innerSpaceman · 05-10-2009, 07:56 PM

I'm really glad you ennumerated the rank stupidiities, and they are indeed doozies. It's a wonder to even me that the nature of Star Trek, as I see it, has allowed for similar and worse stupidities through its long history ... and coupling them with interesting ideas and clever treatments with some regularity.

Reading the list, I can barely believe I was bugged by little or none of it, and that I consider such blatant fallacies of sensibility, believability and, ironically, logic to be part and parcel of perfectly acceptable Star Trek.

I guess I had a similar feeling about the 4th Indiana Jones movie that came out last year. Everyone was hailing the nuclear test refrigerator escape as the millennial jump the shark. But the series had jumped that shark so many decades ago, i was no longer bothered by it.

So, yeah, completely stupid implausiblities either don't bother me or simply don't occur to me as I'm swept away with the fun space adventure with some of my favorite characters.

That seriously is quite the list. That it doesn't matter a fig to me is oddly more testament to the wonderfulness of this movie.

mousepod · 05-10-2009, 08:04 PM

Hey iSm... if you like Alex's list, here's one that one of my friends wrote on another board:

Quote:

Why didn't Spock just throw Kirk in the brig.. and then he HAPPENS to run into ______ down on the planet..?!?

ARE YOU ****ING KIDDING ME!?

And they BEAM from the planet to the ship that's been at warp for at least an hour...?? I thought Orsi and Kurtzman understood a LITTLE about Trek science..

And you don't just go to warp from a stand-still..

And you're not suppose to go to warp within a star system (pushes up glasses) ..

and WHY would you come out of warp blindly?!

And what the **** was up with Engineering.. TURBINES?

and oh yeah, Scotty also just happens to be there on Delta whatever...
THATS LAZY STORYTELLING!

and the Romulan Empire's only hope for salvation was for S______ to implode a super-nova? How is creating a black hole where a planet's sun used to be suppose to save the planet..?

WAY TO GO SPOCK!! I thought you were supposed to be a genius..

I'm fine with re-casting and re-imagining everything but they didn't need this time-travel element..

I've got a bout a dozen other complaints... I guess I didn't like it..

I liked the cast. I liked the look of it.. I liked the opening with the kelvin..

Chernabog · 05-10-2009, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

I guess I had a similar feeling about the 4th Indiana Jones movie that came out last year. Everyone was hailing the nuclear test refrigerator escape as the millennial jump the shark. But the series had jumped that shark so many decades ago, i was no longer bothered by it.

I was bugged by none of the inconsistencies in Star Trek because they are, for the most part, sci-fi mumbo-jumbo, where every futuristic device is more or less a plot device. We just accept that what happens, happens. Star Trek is not about complexity. If you want to see that, watch Battlestar Galactica (the Sci-fi channel series).

Indiana Jones, on the other hand, really bugged me because the real physicality of what they were doing was impossible. Not the alien crystal skull thing (which was pretty lame, admittedly) but the refrigerator, the falling off the waterfall, etc.

It isn't as if they had Kirk get sucked out into space without a suit on, into the black hole, then plummet to the nearest planet and land safely in a feather bed, merely by holding his breath.

JWBear · 05-10-2009, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

If you took the name Star Trek off this movie, I would not like it either. Since my enjoyment came completely from the relationships between Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scotty, Uhura, Sulu and Checkov, it's a pretty moot point to fathom this as just another movie not about Star Trek. Certainly a movie with the same dumb plot featuring characters I didn't give a hoot about would not be one I'd enjoy.

Not even having the characters up there could save it for me (and perhaps, it was a failure for me especially because it was Kirk, Spock, etc up there being dragged through the mud of execrable screenwriting).

Jazzman · 05-11-2009, 12:52 AM

Saw it last night, and I have to say that this lifelong (thanks to an obsessed older sister) Trek nerd absolutely LOVED it. Loved, loved, loved. I knew going in that it was a time travel story, and after suffering craptastic remakes before (a la Transformers) was totally prepared for a major, major disappointment. But, glory be, as I sat there I found myself grinning and giggling with joyful abandon. So help me, this movie rocked. Destroying Vulcan threw me a bit, but honestly, I felt that this reboot needed a canon defying shocker, otherwise they'd just be making a big budget fan film, and blowing up one of the galaxy's most important planets and civilizations certainly filled that requirement. The black hole transporting them through time was weak sauce, I admit, especially when the Enterprise was later only able to escape a similar blackhole by detonating it warp core(s?) but that one sticking point aside, I saw no issues. I sincerely enjoyed how the cast captured the spirit of their original counterparts and portrayels without becoming lame parodies and imitations. The ship was stunning! Beautiful, and lots of good money shots to drool over. I actually loved the industrial feel of engineering and thought it juxtaposed wonderfully with the shine and polish of the bridge and other non-engineering decks. I read that the filmmakers looked to the Titanic being a sleek, sexy ship with a hidden away, purpose oriented engine room for their inspiration, and I think it's brilliant. And while I'm at it, the turbines, I believe, were merely there for water circulation, which even on a starship makes perfect sense as I've never known Trek to have included a "humans no longer need water" bit of canon. Onward, I totally geeked out when Nimoy popped up, and totally relate to CP's sense of sorrow over TOS and its cast at that point. That whole sequence was beautifully done and Spock's joy/pain at seeing his old friend was palpable. Nimoy owns Spock, and though Quinto was amazing, I think we all know who the real Spock will always be. Another thing I loved was the new warp and transporter effects. I'm glad they redid these completely, as we've seen these effects so often that I think most people forget that these things aren't actually real. How do we know what it looks or sounds like going to warp or being beamed off the ship? Oh, and the quick little line about the Enterprise maybe getting up to warp four was cool, too. It gives them something to work toward instead of having a fleet of already-warp-9-capable ships available. Loved that. Let's see... what else... Oh, the Red Ball of Doom. Forgive me, but I dug it. And I believe, to answer Alex, that the point of drilling to the core was that the Red Matter had to be ignited in order to create a singularity/black hole, which only a planet core, collapsing star (or starship collision, apparently) could do. So I personally saw no plothole there. And I have to say, this flick had some of the best effects I've seen onscreen in a while. The new phasers and torpedoes looked wicked, and that last big climactic battle was some serious sci-fi space battle goodness that I can't wait to watch again and again.

I could probably go on and on, but to wrap it up, I'll say that I'm uber-stoked to see it again, this time in IMAX (YES!!!!) and I wish everyone involved in making this film peace, long life, and to live long and ROCK!

Alex · 05-11-2009, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazzman

So I personally saw no plothole there.

The stuff was apparently easy to "ignite." When Quinto was flying around with the stuff the ship's computer warned him that if he was hit by Nero's ship shooting at him that it would happened (and Nero's crew warned him of the same thing). So definitely much easier ways to create this black hole than drilling to the center of the planet to do so.

innerSpaceman · 05-11-2009, 06:32 AM

Yeah, the ignition temperature was all over the place, but the idea was, excuse the pun, planted.

I'm wondering if the person who objected to turbines in engineeering also objected to photon torpedos being manually loaded by a crew of six back in earlier movies.

Sure it was a stylistic choice of seafaring homage back then, but my point being Star Trek has long since established a sort of stylistic freedom from common sense. Is building a starship in Iowa any less absurd than the spacedock palace suddenly available in the few days between Trek II and III?

Yes, some of the more egregious plot and logic holes have become troublesome to me, all the moreso because they are unnecessary. It's not enough that they didn't occur to me while watching the movie, but someone connected with the film for years of production should have ironed those things out. I have to admit that was laziness.

Alex · 05-11-2009, 06:43 AM

The impulse drives aboard the Enterprise have always been said to operate using nuclear fusion to generate plasma which is ejected for propulsion (though we never see a propulsion trail) so I have no problem with the look of engineering (much better than the very sterile TOS look) since that would require a major coolant system and even in a couple of centuries water will be one of the better options for that.

Alex · 05-11-2009, 06:45 AM

I mentioned on LJ an idea that I think would have rocked if Abrams truly wanted to establish he was going a different way and that what has come before will not be a constraint:

Spoiler:

05-10-2009, 07:34 PM	#61
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	It isn't that the time travel stuff doesn't make sense. As far as such goes it was handled pretty well (though it isn't explained why sometimes the Red Matter black holes create time portals and other times it just destroys everything (unless Vulcan -- and Nero once again -- have simply been shipped to another time). It is the rest of the story that is stupid: the fact that Spock alone was trying to save Romulus, that a mining ship is super armed and powerful, that once in the past Nero spends 25 years waiting for Spock so he can exact revenge rather than going to the still existing Romulus and beginning the process of saving it, that the entire Federation fleet is in the Lawrentian system but whatever the reason for that is, it goes unmentioned, that despite this there are a dozen uncrewed ships including the new flagship vessel just waiting to be crewed by the entire student population of Starfleet Academy, that Vulcan and Earth apparently have zero dedicated defences other than starships and yet still sent their entire fleet to one system off somewhere else, that Vulcan is just 8 minutes away from earth, that the entire idea of a spaceship is rendered obsolete by the super-teleportation deus ex machinaed into existence by Spock Prime. That even though Vulcan was about 8 minutes from Earth (or some ridiculously small number given by Checkhov in his shipwide mission briefing) Earth was at least a few hours from Vulcan (since that is how long it took the Enterprise to get back), that a moon orbiting Vulcan is somehow an isolated Federation outpost manned not by Vulcans but by a lone super-genius engineer and his own personal Muffit, that Nero put Spock on that moon rather than letting him watch from the Death Star so he could gloat, that a device that destroys through black holes apparently requires first digging a hole to the center of the object since a black hole simply put on the surface apparently wouldn't be destructive enough (and one wonders how exactly Spock was going to dig a hole to the center of a star so that he could save Romulus), that apparently Romulan miners like to keep their ship decks under several inches of water, that when an Academy cadet is particularly brave he will be given command of the flagship vessel of the fleet. Compared to everything else the time travel and its implications was a paragon of reality and clarity. But it was a fun ride. A stupid ride with characters I am very fond of, but a fun one. Last edited by Alex : 05-10-2009 at 07:42 PM.
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05-10-2009, 07:56 PM	#62
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	I'm really glad you ennumerated the rank stupidiities, and they are indeed doozies. It's a wonder to even me that the nature of Star Trek, as I see it, has allowed for similar and worse stupidities through its long history ... and coupling them with interesting ideas and clever treatments with some regularity. Reading the list, I can barely believe I was bugged by little or none of it, and that I consider such blatant fallacies of sensibility, believability and, ironically, logic to be part and parcel of perfectly acceptable Star Trek. I guess I had a similar feeling about the 4th Indiana Jones movie that came out last year. Everyone was hailing the nuclear test refrigerator escape as the millennial jump the shark. But the series had jumped that shark so many decades ago, i was no longer bothered by it. So, yeah, completely stupid implausiblities either don't bother me or simply don't occur to me as I'm swept away with the fun space adventure with some of my favorite characters. That seriously is quite the list. That it doesn't matter a fig to me is oddly more testament to the wonderfulness of this movie.
	Submit to Quotes

05-11-2009, 12:52 AM	#66
Jazzman Sax God Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Portland's Tijuana Posts: 510	Saw it last night, and I have to say that this lifelong (thanks to an obsessed older sister) Trek nerd absolutely LOVED it. Loved, loved, loved. I knew going in that it was a time travel story, and after suffering craptastic remakes before (a la Transformers) was totally prepared for a major, major disappointment. But, glory be, as I sat there I found myself grinning and giggling with joyful abandon. So help me, this movie rocked. Destroying Vulcan threw me a bit, but honestly, I felt that this reboot needed a canon defying shocker, otherwise they'd just be making a big budget fan film, and blowing up one of the galaxy's most important planets and civilizations certainly filled that requirement. The black hole transporting them through time was weak sauce, I admit, especially when the Enterprise was later only able to escape a similar blackhole by detonating it warp core(s?) but that one sticking point aside, I saw no issues. I sincerely enjoyed how the cast captured the spirit of their original counterparts and portrayels without becoming lame parodies and imitations. The ship was stunning! Beautiful, and lots of good money shots to drool over. I actually loved the industrial feel of engineering and thought it juxtaposed wonderfully with the shine and polish of the bridge and other non-engineering decks. I read that the filmmakers looked to the Titanic being a sleek, sexy ship with a hidden away, purpose oriented engine room for their inspiration, and I think it's brilliant. And while I'm at it, the turbines, I believe, were merely there for water circulation, which even on a starship makes perfect sense as I've never known Trek to have included a "humans no longer need water" bit of canon. Onward, I totally geeked out when Nimoy popped up, and totally relate to CP's sense of sorrow over TOS and its cast at that point. That whole sequence was beautifully done and Spock's joy/pain at seeing his old friend was palpable. Nimoy owns Spock, and though Quinto was amazing, I think we all know who the real Spock will always be. Another thing I loved was the new warp and transporter effects. I'm glad they redid these completely, as we've seen these effects so often that I think most people forget that these things aren't actually real. How do we know what it looks or sounds like going to warp or being beamed off the ship? Oh, and the quick little line about the Enterprise maybe getting up to warp four was cool, too. It gives them something to work toward instead of having a fleet of already-warp-9-capable ships available. Loved that. Let's see... what else... Oh, the Red Ball of Doom. Forgive me, but I dug it. And I believe, to answer Alex, that the point of drilling to the core was that the Red Matter had to be ignited in order to create a singularity/black hole, which only a planet core, collapsing star (or starship collision, apparently) could do. So I personally saw no plothole there. And I have to say, this flick had some of the best effects I've seen onscreen in a while. The new phasers and torpedoes looked wicked, and that last big climactic battle was some serious sci-fi space battle goodness that I can't wait to watch again and again. I could probably go on and on, but to wrap it up, I'll say that I'm uber-stoked to see it again, this time in IMAX (YES!!!!) and I wish everyone involved in making this film peace, long life, and to live long and ROCK!
	Submit to Quotes

05-11-2009, 06:32 AM	#68
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	Yeah, the ignition temperature was all over the place, but the idea was, excuse the pun, planted. I'm wondering if the person who objected to turbines in engineeering also objected to photon torpedos being manually loaded by a crew of six back in earlier movies. Sure it was a stylistic choice of seafaring homage back then, but my point being Star Trek has long since established a sort of stylistic freedom from common sense. Is building a starship in Iowa any less absurd than the spacedock palace suddenly available in the few days between Trek II and III? Yes, some of the more egregious plot and logic holes have become troublesome to me, all the moreso because they are unnecessary. It's not enough that they didn't occur to me while watching the movie, but someone connected with the film for years of production should have ironed those things out. I have to admit that was laziness.
	Submit to Quotes

05-11-2009, 06:43 AM	#69
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	The impulse drives aboard the Enterprise have always been said to operate using nuclear fusion to generate plasma which is ejected for propulsion (though we never see a propulsion trail) so I have no problem with the look of engineering (much better than the very sterile TOS look) since that would require a major coolant system and even in a couple of centuries water will be one of the better options for that.
	Submit to Quotes

05-11-2009, 06:45 AM	#70
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	I mentioned on LJ an idea that I think would have rocked if Abrams truly wanted to establish he was going a different way and that what has come before will not be a constraint: Spoiler: And I think Abrams, whether he knew it or not, set up the perfect opportunity. When Kirk, Sulu, and the Third Guy were preparing to dive down to the drill over Vulcan the Red Shirt joke was obvious (Lani and I looked at each other knowingly). If Abrams had the balls for it, what he should have done is have Sulu (remember, at this point none of them are integrated parts of any crew) be the one to misjudge the drop and be instantly incinerated. Since they didn't really know each other yet, Kirk would have been upset by this no more than he was at the death of the Red Shirt as happened (actually, this is also the same amount of upset as he apparently felt in witnessing the simultaneous murder of 6 billion people -- notice how everybody expected Spock to be upset but apparently it wasn't that big of a deal to anybody else?).
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