The random political thoughts thread (Part Deux)

[scaeagles]

Right. Geithner shouldn't have been on the list. I just started naming some prominent dems without really thinking. I do not think Geithner would have been in any position to know anything.

[flippyshark]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Right. Geithner shouldn't have been on the list. I just started naming some prominent dems without really thinking.

Aha! Without really thinking. There's a lot of that going around with the repubs these days. Hey, I'm not especially political, and I only lean a little to the left, but really, is this the best that the Grand Old Party can do? Pelosi knew? Hey, I'm prepared to believe that she did, and that she is being a weenie by ducking the issue now. If so, so the hell what!? It's politically embarrasing for her - but the last eight years have been politically devastating to the GOP. Defending waterboarding and trying to indict Pelosi is a dead-end street. Y'all are going to have to do some soul-searching, my friends. (And I'm truly in favor of a healthy, intellectually robust conservative opposition. I look forward to their re-appearance sometime soon.)

The whole "let's waterboard (insert political enemy) next" meme is pointless from both sides. The consensus is in. It's torture, or so close to it as to make no difference. We've all known about it for years now.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by flippyshark

Aha! Without really thinking. There's a lot of that going around with the repubs these days.

I completely disagree. I can't speak for all of course, but as a listener of Hannity most of the time, the comments are not flippant, but thought out. I have gone back on forth on the issue myself. Most members of our military that go through specialized training are water boarded. Why would the military "torture" their own members? Just because something is unpleasant or I want it to stop doesn't necessarily make it torture.

In saying, that, though, I do go back and forth on it. There are days when i think it isn't necessary, prudent, or moral, then I wonder why the practices would be released without any results of the process being released. There has been a discussion (but I don't believe there has been any verification) of a 9/11 style plot on Los Angeles that was directly thwarted by info from these water boarding sessions. I also know only 3 detainees were subjected to it, so it was hardly a widespread thing. However, immoral behavior, regardless of how limited, is still mimoral behavior.

What I'm typing is part of the thought process I've been through.

I also have no doubt that should a 9/11 style attack have taken place on LA that the dems would have been screaming "why didn't Bush do more?!?!?!". Same as the dems screaming right now about this when I believe they knew of this practice. (And yes, Flippy, I just listed some prominent dems....my point wasn't the specific people, but simply trying to point out that there were people on left side of the aisle that certainly knew and didn't speak up until it was to their political advantage to do so....so in my listing of people, I didn't stop and really think about which ones. Perhaps I should have listed Pelosi and done some research into exactly who was privy to the breifings Pelosi was privy to.)

[Scrooge McSam]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Why would the military "torture" their own members?

Read up on the "SERE" program and you'll have your answer.

A torturer can make you confess to anything, even if it's false. SERE endeavored to train our guys to resist an enemy's attempts to extract a false confession.

[flippyshark]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

And yes, Flippy, I just listed some prominent dems....my point wasn't the specific people, but simply trying to point out that there were people on left side of the aisle that certainly knew and didn't speak up until it was to their political advantage to do so.

A point I wouldn't have argued with at all.

So, just to be clear, there aren't actually any Democrats you feel should be waterboarded, right?

To my understanding, the reason that waterboarding is part of military training is to prepare soldiers in case they are ever captured and waterboarded. So, yes, in a sense, SERE training involves torturing recruits. I presume that the exposure to these techniques is relatively brief, done with full disclosure beforehand, and with careful attention to making sure no one is truly harmed. Emerging information seems to indicate that our detainees underwent endless hours of the procedure, in one case over one hundred times in a month. We don't yet know what, if any, useful information was obtained by these means, but indications are that conventional interrogation techniques have been far more effective.

If there really is a 24-style ticking bomb scenario that we avoided thanks to waterboarding, we should know about it. (Cheney insists there are documents that would vindicate the procedure - but even if they aren't released, surely there are people involved who could give us at least SOME information about this hitherto-unknown breakthrough in national security.)

I've got to go back onstage, but, as always, pleasure tossing the ideological volleyball around.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by flippyshark

So, just to be clear, there aren't actually any Democrats you feel should be waterboarded, right?

I don't think so. I tried (and not very well) to make a rhetorical point.

[Gemini Cricket]

Opinions on Sotomayor?

I didn't realize it was pronounced "SO-TOE-MAY-YOUR". At least that's how they pronounce it on NPR.

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

And yes, Flippy, I just listed some prominent dems....my point wasn't the specific people, but simply trying to point out that there were people on left side of the aisle that certainly knew and didn't speak up until it was to their political advantage to do so....

Again, you missed the point. We were listing people on the right who are quite vocal in denying that waterboarding is torture, not people who might have known we were diong it.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by JWBear

Again, you missed the point. We were listing people on the right who are quite vocal in denying that waterboarding is torture, not people who might have known we were diong it.

In my opinion, it is far worse to believe it is torture and do nothing when they know it is happening than to vocally express that it is not torture.

I personally know two members of the armed forces who have been subjected to it and do not consider it torture.....and in fact, find it somewhat ridiculous that it is categorized as such. There are people who have been subjected to it who do not consider it to be. What is torture to me may not be torture to someone else. I am deathly afraid of the dentist, do not go willingly, dread it, and want it to be over immediately. It literally takes every ounce of will power I have not to bolt from the chair. Is that to be considered torture? I don't think I'd like water boarding, but someone like Michael Phelps might not mind at all. Hell, I'd like to sue my son's 4th grade music teacher for making him practice his recorder for 3 hours/month. THAT is torture.

[flippyshark]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

In my opinion, it is far worse to believe it is torture and do nothing when they know it is happening than to vocally express that it is not torture.

I personally know two members of the armed forces who have been subjected to it and do not consider it torture.....and in fact, find it somewhat ridiculous that it is categorized as such. There are people who have been subjected to it who do not consider it to be. What is torture to me may not be torture to someone else. I am deathly afraid of the dentist, do not go willingly, dread it, and want it to be over immediately. It literally takes every ounce of will power I have not to bolt from the chair. Is that to be considered torture? I don't think I'd like water boarding, but someone like Michael Phelps might not mind at all. Hell, I'd like to sue my son's 4th grade music teacher for making him practice his recorder for 3 hours/month. THAT is torture.

I'm with you all the way about the dentist.

It seems to me that the majority of democrats have been railing against it for years now. I'd want evidence that they knew and stayed silent back in '02. And if that is so, then I'd be interested in knowing when they changed their minds and why. And then, yes, I'd agree that said weasliness is worse than simply having the opinion that the practice isn't torture. But neither of these things are high crimes - they are pretty small potatoes compared to actually authorizing and carrying out torture. (Or even enhanced unpleasantness.)

I don't doubt that there are people who can take it and shrug it off. How much did your armed forces acquaintances undergo? Were they subjected for hours at a time, over a hundred times in one month? (That is definitely going into the torture category for me.) Would they feel the same way if they underwent the procedure after being imprisoned for a few years, less fit, confined and not knowing what was happening to them? I can't answer that, of course.

I'm convinced that waterboarding doesn't belong in our bag of interrogation tricks. It seems obvious to me just as its relative harmlessness seems obvious to you. But whether or not it deserves the name torture is just semantics. Until someone convinces me with evidence, I call the practice needless, ugly and ineffective. It makes us look desperate and scared, and I'm not convinced it bought us anything useful.