The Gay Thread

[innerSpaceman]

Originally Posted by Nephythys

Really? ...

A murdered gay man did not suffer more agony and fear than the murdered woman-his family does not feel more pain and loss.

So what about the fear I felt when Matthew Shepard was murdered vs. the totally didn't feel a thing when Matilda Himmelfarb was murdered.

Never heard of Matilda Himmelfarb? Exactly.

Matilda was murdered for her money. Matthew was murdered because he was gay. I suppose "hate crimes" is a poor term because, you are right, almost all crimes have an element of hatred. And Gemini Cricket is right that terrorism has been too watered down, but that's why the punishments are enhanced. Because what we are calling "hate crimes" are literally terrorism.

[Nephythys]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

So what about the fear I felt when Matthew Shepard was murdered vs. the totally didn't feel a thing when Matilda Himmelfarb was murdered.

Never heard of Matilda Himmelfarb? Exactly.

Matilda was murdered for her money. Matthew was murdered because he was gay. I suppose "hate crimes" is a poor term because, you are right, almost all crimes have an element of hatred. And Gemini Cricket is right that terrorism has been too watered down, but that's why the punishments are enhanced. Because what we are calling "hate crimes" are literally terrorism.

We can all feel fear of some sort of crime-

Maybe women are more impacted by fear of rape and murder.
Mothers may fear someone killing their children.

We may feel impact and fear based on our similarities to a victim-but punishment should not be meted out based on the fear impact on others- it should be based on the crime.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Nephythys

But of ALL of those distinctions-it doesn't matter to me if the victim is gay, straight, black, white.....the victims are equal.

Perhaps not, but we as a society are already perfectly okay with creating different levels of punishment based solely on motive. By your earlier logic, if I shoot someone in the head, my punishment should be no different if I did it because he's some stranger that spilled my beer at a bar and I happened to have my gun on me than if I spent months plotting to kill someone because they hit on my wife once. The actual act is the same, different punishments would amount to punishing thought, no?

Like I said, I don't necessarily think that hate crime legislation is an effective thing to do, but "we can't punish motive because that's being thought-police" isn't a argument against it that holds much water because, well, we already do that with no objection.

Originally Posted by Nephythys

We can all feel fear of some sort of crime-

Maybe women are more impacted by fear of rape and murder.
Mothers may fear someone killing their children.

Which is why rape carries a stiffer penalty than simple assault. Crimes against children can carry larger penalties than crimes against adults. Domestic violence stronger penalties than punching a guy at a bar. We already have many dividing lines where, as a society, we feel it necessary to make a point of discouraging specific behavior.

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by Gn2Dlnd

Read the full article, "Differences in State Laws Affect Elder Abuse Reporting"

Why is everybody always picking on me?

[SzczerbiakManiac]

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

Why is everybody always picking on me?

Do you really want to know?

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Perhaps not, but we as a society are already perfectly okay with creating different levels of punishment based solely on motive. By your earlier logic, if I shoot someone in the head, my punishment should be no different if I did it because he's some stranger that spilled my beer at a bar and I happened to have my gun on me than if I spent months plotting to kill someone because they hit on my wife once. The actual act is the same, different punishments would amount to punishing thought, no?

Like I said, I don't necessarily think that hate crime legislation is an effective thing to do, but "we can't punish motive because that's being thought-police" isn't a argument against it that holds much water because, well, we already do that with no objection.

Which is why rape carries a stiffer penalty than simple assault. Crimes against children can carry larger penalties than crimes against adults. Domestic violence stronger penalties than punching a guy at a bar. We already have many dividing lines where, as a society, we feel it necessary to make a point of discouraging specific behavior.

Thank you GD. You made the exact same points I wanted to make last night, but couldn't (sick computer).