Dick Durbin

[Scrooge McSam]

Sometimes the news just falls in your lap like a big ole Christmas (Non-sectarian winter holiday season, for the ultra libs) present.

This morning, in a Meet the Press discussion on the Guantanamo facility, John McCain said...

... I think, on balance, the argument has got to be--the weight of evidence has got to be that we've got to adjudicate these people's cases, and that means that if it means releasing some of them, you'll have to release them. Look, even Adolf Eichmann got a trial.

Where have I heard that name?

Does Mr McCain realize he's saying that America as a country does not afford the same legal protection to it's Muslim detainees as it did to the Nazis? Does Mr McCain not realize we're at war? Does Mr. McCain not realize that his statements provide comfort and encouragement to the very terrorists that seek to kill our brave soldiers?

What a quandry. Do I now take a giant leap away away from my good senses as well as my understanding of the english language and declare John McCain a disgusting individual? Or do I understand that Mr. McCain is pressing the point that Americans collectively have a standard of treatment for human beings and the recent events brought to light indicate that we are not living up to that standard?

It IS a puzzler

[sleepyjeff]

What If the US did what so many so called human rights orgs want US to do? What if they released all the prisoners (remember, these are people who have sworn they want to destroy America and are highly suspected of doing things to actively achieve that end).

What if some of those released come back at US 5 or 10 years from now.

What if they become responsible for the killing of 10,000 Americans or 100,000? What if they hooked up with someone who has the bomb and manged to kill close to a 1,000,000 Americans?

We already know they want to................

What will those Americans who are screaming to have these prisoners released say then:

1. "Oh, well....can't be afraid all the time...can't live in a bubble"

2. "My God!......who is responsible for this-------can't be me and my calls for their freedom". "Dam Bush, he did this on purpose to give us a reason to attack (fill in country here)".

3. "It is better to uphold ideals and lose a few million lives then to bend those ideals and lose who we are....when we do that the enemy really wins...blah blah blah"--------yeah right....I am sure the enemy is cheering in the streets when we "bend" our ideals and come at them with everything we got vs when they kill each and every last one of us

--------------------------

THEY WANT TO KILL US ALL..........doesn't anybody understand that?

[wendybeth]

I think people understand completely what they want to do to us, Jeff, but I really don't think holding a bunch of people indefinitely- with no trial or due process of any sort- is making us any safer. What about the borders? Air safety? Port security? There are so many terrorists and potential terrorists out there that we can't possibly catch and incarcerate them all, and it just seems to me that the logical thing to do is make it more difficult for them to enter our country. In the meantime, do we really have to compromise our priciples and standards so very much? If we do, then they have already won. We have fought many wars with people who wanted nothing more than to eliminate us from the face of the earth, and we will never be safe from outside threats. I agree that there are many organizations that have blinders on, namely the UN, Amnesty International, the ACLU, etc, and they do a lot of things that really piss me off, but at the same time they have done a lot of good for this world.

I really am saddened by the willingness to give up so much of what makes our country great, all in the guise of short term safety. It is an illusion- we are no safer now than we were Sept. 10th, 2001. We have done some good thngs since then, such as (apparently) getting rid of the Taliban , but we have also done so many ugly, vicious things, and too many innocents are getting hurt.

[Scrooge McSam]

Originally Posted by sleepyjeff

What If the US did what so many so called human rights orgs want US to do? What if they released all the prisoners (remember, these are people who have sworn they want to destroy America and are highly suspected of doing things to actively achieve that end).

We really don't have to go any further than this first paragraph.

You contend, if I don't misunderstand you, that the ultimate goal of the people speaking out about prison abuse is to just have these people released. That is not true. I haven't heard anyone suggest opening the doors and just turning them out. The bringing of evidence and some hearings on that evidence sure would be nice though.

You contend, if I don't misunderstand you, that all the people held in these prison are people who have sworn they want to destroy American. That is also not true. There are reports of people being held for nothing more than immigration violations. It would seem to me that we could get more than 39 convictions out of a pool of 500 prisoners if the place was crawling with sworn terrorists.

[sleepyjeff]

Originally Posted by Scrooge McSam

You contend, if I don't misunderstand you, that the ultimate goal of the people speaking out about prison abuse is to just have these people released. That is not true. I haven't heard anyone suggest opening the doors and just turning them out. The bringing of evidence and some hearings on that evidence sure would be nice though.

Good points all......but....

... if the bringing of evidence with hearings would pose a danger to the US then what?

Ultimately it is their release that many of these people must really want....which would be fine by me if they really were innocents.....but I can't really fathom what would be the gain to anybody high up in the US government to keep innocents in a Cuban Prison???? Somebody explain that one to me please.

[wendybeth]

I suppose because they can, Jeff. It's the same mindset that had the FBI keeping files on such people as John Lennon, etc, and it's been going on for years. It's just that now they seem to think they have a mandate from the public- "Please protect us and we'll gladly give up any and all rights and liberties we posess , and screw the rest of the world- they're not Americans anyway!" I've no doubt that some nasty types are in Gitmo. I also have no doubt that there are quite a few poor, illiterate sheepherders in there as well, who just happened to get caught up in this mess. Either way, we do not give them any sort of due process whatsoever, and that is wrong. Not only is it wrong, it only reinforces what the bad guys are saying about us.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by wendybeth

we do not give them any sort of due process whatsoever, and that is wrong. Not only is it wrong, it only reinforces what the bad guys are saying about us.

No, Wendy, it isn't. They are not criminals subject to the laws of our country. They have no constitutionally gauranteed rights. They have no right to a trial (at this point, and perhaps never - just release at the end of hostilities unless they are tried for war crimes). They have no right to due process. They are not American citizens. They are not foreign nationals who committed a crime on our soil.

What they are are prisoners of war. They are not to be released until the end of hostilities.

I personally don't care about what the bad guys are saying about us, but it sure raises my ire a bit when a Senator such as Durbin says things that clearly give them aid and comfort - which is precisely why they are playing what he said on Al Jazeera.

[wendybeth]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

No, Wendy, it isn't. They are not criminals subject to the laws of our country. They have no constitutionally gauranteed rights. They have no right to a trial (at this point, and perhaps never - just release at the end of hostilities unless they are tried for war crimes). They have no right to due process. They are not American citizens. They are not foreign nationals who committed a crime on our soil.



What they are are prisoners of war. They are not to be released until the end of hostilities.

I personally don't care about what the bad guys are saying about us, but it sure raises my ire a bit when a Senator such as Durbin says things that clearly give them aid and comfort - which is precisely why they are playing what he said on Al Jazeera.

Exactly my point. They are not American citizens, therefore they are not deserving of any sort of judicial hearing or proceeding- they are being held as 'enemy combatants'. I suppose now that we've set the precedent, any other country can just grab an American citzen and make the same claim. Never mind that they are civilian engineers, or relief workers, or anything but soldiers. The people that have been seized up until now have been referred to as hostages, but by your logic they are really enemy combatants to the other side. There are at least two sides to any war, correct? I don't see them as such, and that is why I don't necessarily see all the Gitmo detainees as POW's. It's just not that black and white, and things are never as clear as a politician would lead you to believe.
Btw- since when do only Americans deserve basic civil rights? That's so frikken elitest, I don't even know how to respond. We had the good sense to draft a constitution just in case a situation like this arose, so that means only we get the special treatment?

[sleepyjeff]

Originally Posted by wendybeth

I I also have no doubt that there are quite a few poor, illiterate sheepherders in there as well, who just happened to get caught up in this mess.

No doubt? You are 100% sure that innocents are being held in Cuba? I find this hard to believe because for every person we are holding in Cuba there are several hundred we questioned and released back in Afghanistan---many of which were pointing and shooting guns at our troops. If we are going to let them go why would we go around and grab innocent regular folk and then ship them to Cuba? Again, it doesn't add up. Sorry, but "just because they can" doesn't satisfy me. They wouldn't do all that just for the heck of it

[Scrooge McSam]

Originally Posted by sleepyjeff

... if the bringing of evidence with hearings would pose a danger to the US then what?

Since when did the pursuit of truth become injurious to the United States of America?

I'm not trying to be catty, but you've lost me here.