On Psalm 109 and Faith

[Ghoulish Delight]

My question to scaeagles, Morrigoon, whomever is still interested in the conversation is this. Let's imagine that tomorrow you were presented with concrete, indisputable, utterly convincing-to-you proof that no god exists (I'll leave discussion of "burden of proof" to another time). If so, would your behavior change going forward? Would your personal desire to be good and do good things and treat other people "right" disappear? If not (as I imagine, and hope, is your answer), where does that leave the necessity for belief in god?

[Morrigoon]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

My question to scaeagles, Morrigoon, whomever is still interested in the conversation is this. Let's imagine that tomorrow you were presented with concrete, indisputable, utterly convincing-to-you proof that no god exists (I'll leave discussion of "burden of proof" to another time). If so, would your behavior change going forward? Would your personal desire to be good and do good things and treat other people "right" disappear? If not (as I imagine, and hope, is your answer), where does that leave the necessity for belief in god?

First, I don't think that proof can or will ever be presented to me. I know something greater than me exists. Many things greater than me exist, starting with the Universe. Even if you could present some kind of "proof" to me that the Old Testament God didn't, I could point to the vastness of infinity and ask you where it came from. It came from somewhere, and if it didn't, if it is the beginning and the end, the alpha and the omega of existence, then we've come full circle. Then all of existence is God, God is everything, all souls come from the universe and return to the universe.

You can rip apart man's texts all you want, and I'll acknowledge their flaws right along with you. Again, because I think independently about my spirituality. But you can't shake my faith in something greater than myself. And you can't convince me that there's nothing after death. If there isn't anything after death, I really haven't lost anything believing in it.

I don't think life is in any way remotely enriched by a disbelief in God. I just don't see the upside. "Being right" is not an upside (if we take the assumption that you are right.) There's no prize for dying and going "Haha, I'm dead, see? Really dead, and there's nothing else - ever!" In fact, if you're right, you'll never really know it. Believing in life after death, if I'm wrong, I'll never know it, never have lost anything by being wrong. If you're wrong about God and life after death, there's a pretty tremendous potential downside.

Sure, there's a freedom from dogma, but I have that, and I didn't have to reject any idea that involved a being greater than myself. In fact, I find a certain dogma in atheism, and definitely a lot of proselytizing. Cemeinke is the first, and thus far only, non-proselytizing atheist I've ever met. So you've traded religion of a supreme being for religion of the non-existence of a supreme being. So what's the change?

I don't think my behavior would change as a result of the non-existence of a supreme being, but that's a silly reason* to actually stop believing in the existence of one. And certainly, there are times when the thought that being a good person, which I am for its own sake, might be pleasing to God, puts an extra note of sweetness to it. Like an extra spoonful of sugar in an already good cup of tea. Not that I go around every day asking myself if what I do is pleasing to a supreme being. But if I stop to think about it, I think, "Cool, yeah, he probably likes this". Sometimes I wonder about things, like when what I believe in my heart is right conflicts with what is written about the topic, but ultimately, I go with what my heart tells me, because I think right is right, regardless of what's written. And if I'm wrong, well, then I was wrong and there will be a price to pay, or not, but ultimately my measure of what is "right" comes from my heart, and I hope God agrees with me.

(*- the "silly reason" being whether or not my behavior would change, not the non-existence. Obviously if God didn't exist, it'd be a pretty good reason to stop believe in his existence. But whether or not a hypothetical non-existence would change my behavior, isn't.)

The advantage of being a monotheistic independent thinker is I can cherry pick information from the existing texts without having to reconcile what seems right with that which doesn't. Text are imperfect because man has written them (Divinely inspired, perhaps, but written, rewritten, and repeatedly edited by fallible men). "Right" is an immutable truth, and is not changed by man. I have to hope (faith?) that my heart tells me the real truth, even when it conflicts with what man's texts tell me.

I'll put a question to you, GD, and I genuinely want to know: what do you feel is the upside to discovering you were atheist? Was there a benefit to this conversion? Is there some area of your life that has dramatically improved by becoming an atheist that would not have improved if you merely become agnostic?

[flippyshark]

Originally Posted by Morrigoon

The advantage of being a monotheistic independent thinker is I can cherry pick information from the existing texts without having to reconcile what seems right with that which doesn't.

You get my Award For Honesty with this one. Lots of Christians I know cherry-pick and insist that they are actually finding the "true meaning" of scripture.

As an atheist, I think it is fun, stimulating and wise to browse the (purportedly) holy texts of history and give consideration to those ideas that seem useful, both in and out of their original contexts. So, I honestly applaud your willingness not to be bound to any sect or ideology, and to gleefully roll your own.

I know that you asked GD and not me, but I'll briefly say that my own embrace of no-god-ness felt like a release from prison. I don't have time to go into it now, as I'll soon be running late for work, but the benefits went well beyond simply feeling "right." In my own case, it helped me get rid of some nagging double-think, helped me drop some prejudices, and re-ordered my priorities a bit, but on the whole, I'm very much the same person as before. I feel more clear-headed on some topics, but I don't know everything. (including whether or not there is a massively powerful intellect hiding behind the cosmic curtain.) In fact, I now know that I know almost nothing at all.

More later if it seems appropriate.

(P.S. - You may find that what secularists call atheism, most people of faith call agnosticism. What most people of faith call atheism, most atheists reject. - In other words, atheists do not believe there is a god or gods, but most do not claim to know there isn't. To many, atheism and agnosticism are not even two different things, maybe only a matter of degree. More later if it seems appropriate. DP)