The random political thoughts thread (Part Deux) - Page 583

JWBear · 04-14-2010, 02:40 PM

So, which side of the Tea Party will prevail over this new law... the racist anti-immigration side, or the Sovereign Citizen/government-out-of-my-life side?

scaeagles · 04-14-2010, 03:14 PM

I'm not sure if the tea party movement is too involved in that decision. I'm good with the tea party, but I don't like this new law.

Speaking of the whole tea party movement, what do you think of crashtheteaparty.org? There is some question as to if it is a real movement, but I find it somewhat classless, should it be real, to intentionally pose as a tea partier so you can make them out to look like exactly what you think they are.

And anti illegal immigration is not racist. I am indeed anti illegal immigration, but am not a racist.

innerSpaceman · 04-14-2010, 03:15 PM

I've got a thousand pesos on the racist side.

innerSpaceman · 04-14-2010, 03:16 PM

I don't think anyone's contending being anti-illegal immigration is racist, scaeagles. Just that the new law is.

It's hardly the way to fight illegal immigration. It's the way to stop all Latino reporting of crime, for one thing. And, well, I would almost hope incite mass rioting and revolution for another.

Alex · 04-14-2010, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles

And anti illegal immigration is not racist. I am indeed anti illegal immigration, but am not a racist.

That's true. I'm anti-illegal immigration too (though I suspect I disagree with each other on how the fact it happens anyway should be handled).

However, when you're allowed to someone stop someone simply because you've decided you have a reasonable suspicion that they're in the country illegally I'm going to say that most of the methods for reaching that suspicion are going to be racial and very easily move into racism. I'm guessing that an illegal Irish nanny in Yuma is going to have a lot less reason to be scared of this law than a legal hispanic busboy in Flagstaff.

Alex · 04-14-2010, 03:23 PM

I should also note that because I'm freaky that way I tried to go read the law passed rather than take press reports at their word but I can't find it at the AZ legislature web site so any help appreciated. I did find a immigration related bill that seems to have been active today but it has nothing to do (that I can see) with what the article describes.

Ghoulish Delight · 04-14-2010, 03:30 PM

SB1070

Fact Sheet prepared for the legislators.

scaeagles · 04-14-2010, 07:43 PM

To be clear, and I did state earlier, I am completely against the law as passed. I do not think it should be within the purview of police to stop someone because they don't look right.

I believe the way to go about this is to eliminate the market for work for illegal immigrants. Go after employers and have stings for those who hire illegal day laborers. And it's also time to control the border.

innerSpaceman · 04-14-2010, 08:12 PM

If I go to my local Home Depot and pick up a couple of guys for sex and some random construction work, is it my duty as a private citizen to see their green cards or birth certificates or otherwise determine their immigration status?

There are plenty of hungry legal residents willing to paint my bedroom and then blow me for chump change.

scaeagles · 04-15-2010, 04:57 AM

Along those lines, I find it amusing on Cesar Chavez day, a rather large celebration in Arizona, when the local leaders of the primarily hispanic community use the podium to talk about fairness for all laborers.

Cesar Chavez encouraged members of the hispanic community to report illegals and he was pro-deportation. The reasons are clear. He knew that the literally millions of extra workers that were off the books in the US lowered the cost of labor immensely, creating a very low standard of living for those that were here working legally.

That said, I don't know how to deal with the day laborers hanging out at home depot. Only a few miles from my home, there was an attempt for day laborers to organize. They ended up, along with the HOme Depot they were hanging out at) to get a day labor center built for them to hang out at and wait for people to come hire them. It quickly became problematic in that organizers would only allow people in who committed to accept no less than $8/hour for labor. To gain an advantage, several went back to the street corner, looking to work for $7/hour. Soon no one used the shelter that cost $150K to build. It's now back to normal at the Home Depot (except the numbers are way down as not many people are hiring day labor in this economy).

ISM, I honestly don't know what the solution is for day labor. There may not be one. But the day labor situation hurts the wages of those who are here legally and legally operated businesses. Yeah, maybe I can't fin someone who will come and build my fence on the day I need it - I might have to plan ahead - but that seems a minor convenience. As for your specific needs, I'm sure a few blocks away on Van Buren you might find another hourly laborer to take care of you.

Can't say I know what the best solution is. I don't like the new law. I don't think what is happening now is acceptable, though.

04-14-2010, 02:40 PM	#5821
JWBear Worn Romantic Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Long Beach California Posts: 8,435	So, which side of the Tea Party will prevail over this new law... the racist anti-immigration side, or the Sovereign Citizen/government-out-of-my-life side? __________________ Unrestrained frivolity will lead to the downfall of modern society.
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04-14-2010, 03:14 PM	#5822
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	I'm not sure if the tea party movement is too involved in that decision. I'm good with the tea party, but I don't like this new law. Speaking of the whole tea party movement, what do you think of crashtheteaparty.org? There is some question as to if it is a real movement, but I find it somewhat classless, should it be real, to intentionally pose as a tea partier so you can make them out to look like exactly what you think they are. And anti illegal immigration is not racist. I am indeed anti illegal immigration, but am not a racist.
	Submit to Quotes

04-14-2010, 03:15 PM	#5823
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	I've got a thousand pesos on the racist side.
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04-14-2010, 03:16 PM	#5824
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	I don't think anyone's contending being anti-illegal immigration is racist, scaeagles. Just that the new law is. It's hardly the way to fight illegal immigration. It's the way to stop all Latino reporting of crime, for one thing. And, well, I would almost hope incite mass rioting and revolution for another.
	Submit to Quotes

04-14-2010, 03:23 PM	#5826
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	I should also note that because I'm freaky that way I tried to go read the law passed rather than take press reports at their word but I can't find it at the AZ legislature web site so any help appreciated. I did find a immigration related bill that seems to have been active today but it has nothing to do (that I can see) with what the article describes.
	Submit to Quotes

04-14-2010, 03:30 PM	#5827
Ghoulish Delight I Floop the Pig Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Alternative Swankstyle Posts: 19,348	SB1070 Fact Sheet prepared for the legislators. __________________ 'He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.' -TJ
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04-14-2010, 07:43 PM	#5828
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	To be clear, and I did state earlier, I am completely against the law as passed. I do not think it should be within the purview of police to stop someone because they don't look right. I believe the way to go about this is to eliminate the market for work for illegal immigrants. Go after employers and have stings for those who hire illegal day laborers. And it's also time to control the border.
	Submit to Quotes

04-14-2010, 08:12 PM	#5829
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	If I go to my local Home Depot and pick up a couple of guys for sex and some random construction work, is it my duty as a private citizen to see their green cards or birth certificates or otherwise determine their immigration status? There are plenty of hungry legal residents willing to paint my bedroom and then blow me for chump change.
	Submit to Quotes

04-15-2010, 04:57 AM	#5830
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	Along those lines, I find it amusing on Cesar Chavez day, a rather large celebration in Arizona, when the local leaders of the primarily hispanic community use the podium to talk about fairness for all laborers. Cesar Chavez encouraged members of the hispanic community to report illegals and he was pro-deportation. The reasons are clear. He knew that the literally millions of extra workers that were off the books in the US lowered the cost of labor immensely, creating a very low standard of living for those that were here working legally. That said, I don't know how to deal with the day laborers hanging out at home depot. Only a few miles from my home, there was an attempt for day laborers to organize. They ended up, along with the HOme Depot they were hanging out at) to get a day labor center built for them to hang out at and wait for people to come hire them. It quickly became problematic in that organizers would only allow people in who committed to accept no less than $8/hour for labor. To gain an advantage, several went back to the street corner, looking to work for $7/hour. Soon no one used the shelter that cost $150K to build. It's now back to normal at the Home Depot (except the numbers are way down as not many people are hiring day labor in this economy). ISM, I honestly don't know what the solution is for day labor. There may not be one. But the day labor situation hurts the wages of those who are here legally and legally operated businesses. Yeah, maybe I can't fin someone who will come and build my fence on the day I need it - I might have to plan ahead - but that seems a minor convenience. As for your specific needs, I'm sure a few blocks away on Van Buren you might find another hourly laborer to take care of you. Can't say I know what the best solution is. I don't like the new law. I don't think what is happening now is acceptable, though.
	Submit to Quotes