The random political thoughts thread (Part Deux) - Page 585

innerSpaceman · 04-15-2010, 09:34 AM

Pfft, they'd peg you for a kraut instantly and ship you back to Prussia, pronto.

scaeages, I don' think there is any solution for the "home depot" problem, which is - in miniature - the entire global economy problem. Like water, money will always find a way. As for labor and services, if they can be done cheaper and still attract enough buyers to make a go of it, it will be done. Land borders won't stop it. At the higher economic levels (even those that reach to the very lowest, such as Chinese exports), no earthly barriers such as air or ocean will stop it.

Making economic immigration illegal is, imo, akin to making marijuana illegal. It's folly to outlaw a plant that nature will have grow and no amount of fear or coercion will stop the demand for. Similarly, people WILL go where they can to enable them to eat, and other people WILL search out the greatest value for their money so that have more of it to eat with. No fence, militia, or law will stop the tide for a moment.

The key is to find ways to DEAL with it, as we must deal with the sun rising in the east. If we have no sway over Mexico, we have to deal with the situation here in the U.S. It obviously won't be easy. It just as obviously must be done.

ETA: Hahahah, 3 of us simultaneously posting about €uro's deportation!

Alex · 04-15-2010, 09:35 AM

The other country has to agree take you (this has been a problem with getting rid of several Guantanamo detainees; we wanted to release them but had nowhere to send them and it was politically unacceptable to release them into the United States) so if you can't prove to the French that you're French I'm guessing they won't. So the end result if you're here illegally, I think, is just ending up in permanent lock-up.

There are several countries that also have standing policies of not accepting deportees even if it is true that they're the nation of origin (Vietnam, Jamaica, Laos, and a few others).

Alex · 04-15-2010, 09:40 AM

Sure there's a home depot issue.

1. Liberalize legal immigration so that the volume allowed self-supporting entries better matches the demand for self-supporting immigrants.

2. Eliminate the minimum wage so that people can do whatever work they want for whatever wage they want meaning that illegal employment no longer undercuts legal employment on price.

and

3. Execute illegal immigrants so the incentive is strongly in favor of using legal means.

JWBear · 04-15-2010, 09:41 AM

I once read where someone compared trying to stop illegal emigration to trying to bail out a flood with a bucket. It might give you some satisfaction to think you're actually doing something, but even if you could accomplish your goal, where will you put all that water where it won't just flood someplace else?

JWBear · 04-15-2010, 10:56 AM

A friend just sent me a text that read "Happy Buying Civilization Day!"

Strangler Lewis · 04-15-2010, 11:11 AM

Scaeagles, is your concern truly with the fact that illegal workers undercut legal workers or simply that their ability to do so brings them here, where they consume more services and cause other problems?

If the former, I don't understand it. If there were no such thing as illegal immigration, but there was a class of workers willing or able to work more cheaply than anybody else, every corporation would rush to hire them to discharge their fiduciary duty to their shareholders, and you would say that was part of the free market.

Of course, we already have such workers in our work force. They're called Chinese, Malaysians, robots and computers.

scaeagles · 04-15-2010, 11:40 AM

it is a combination of both, really.

The underground economy pays no taxes. While it is a sad fact now that since 47% of wage earners pay no federal income taxes making it perhaps not so uncommon, the underground economy pays no medicare or social security tax either. In avoiding the system, they still consume government resources. Yeah, that pisses me off.

The economics of the situation are indeed complex and hourly rates go far beyond this issue. Unions, skilled vs. unskilled, regulation, minimum wages....all come into play in that determination, so I don't think there is an issue of corporations being able to do much of that. Corporations certainly look to keep their salary obligations to a minimum and play within the rules as best they can to seek whatever advantage they can.

Ghoulish Delight · 04-15-2010, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles

The underground economy pays no taxes. While it is a sad fact now that since 47% of wage earners pay no federal income taxes making it perhaps not so uncommon, the underground economy pays no medicare or social security tax either. In avoiding the system, they still consume government resources. Yeah, that pisses me off.

Pays no taxes?

They are (on average) the lowest of low wage workers. Let's go ahead an presume a legal worker of similar income. They would pay no income tax. Their contribution to SS and meidcare (programs from which an undocumented worker would have no ability to collect benefit) would be a pittance. The biggest chunk of taxes collected from such a worker? Sales tax on goods and services they purchase. Guess who still has to pay sales tax, documented or not.

And what massive government resources are they consuming? Occasional visits to medical clinics, education (for children who often are legal US citizens by birth), maybe some food banks and shelters, and.....drawing a blank. They do not collect unemployment, SS, medicare, welfare, etc. etc.

So they end up paying only a fraction less in taxes than they would were they legal, and they are have the benefit of only a fraction of government services available to a legal worker.

None of which adds up to reasons to completely ignore the issue. But they contribute far more to, and consume far less from, government resources than the anti-immigrant propaganda would have you believe.

Betty · 04-15-2010, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

And what massive government resources are they consuming? Occasional visits to medical clinics, education (for children who often are legal US citizens by birth), .

But their children would not be citizens if they weren't born here, and they wouldn't have been born here had their parents not been here illegally.

Alex · 04-15-2010, 12:38 PM

Besides, working under the table is a time honored tradition. I wouldn't have had my first three jobs if were working aboveboard.

I would be fine with the United States changing and joining most of the world works in not granting citizenship simply for being born on U.S. soil.

But that would probably take an amendment to the constitution to accomplish. And it wouldn't really change anything. "Anchor babies" may be a nice side benefit of illegal immigration but I don't think it is likely a driving force behind it.

04-15-2010, 09:34 AM	#5841
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	Pfft, they'd peg you for a kraut instantly and ship you back to Prussia, pronto. scaeages, I don' think there is any solution for the "home depot" problem, which is - in miniature - the entire global economy problem. Like water, money will always find a way. As for labor and services, if they can be done cheaper and still attract enough buyers to make a go of it, it will be done. Land borders won't stop it. At the higher economic levels (even those that reach to the very lowest, such as Chinese exports), no earthly barriers such as air or ocean will stop it. Making economic immigration illegal is, imo, akin to making marijuana illegal. It's folly to outlaw a plant that nature will have grow and no amount of fear or coercion will stop the demand for. Similarly, people WILL go where they can to enable them to eat, and other people WILL search out the greatest value for their money so that have more of it to eat with. No fence, militia, or law will stop the tide for a moment. The key is to find ways to DEAL with it, as we must deal with the sun rising in the east. If we have no sway over Mexico, we have to deal with the situation here in the U.S. It obviously won't be easy. It just as obviously must be done. ETA: Hahahah, 3 of us simultaneously posting about €uro's deportation!
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04-15-2010, 09:35 AM	#5842
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	The other country has to agree take you (this has been a problem with getting rid of several Guantanamo detainees; we wanted to release them but had nowhere to send them and it was politically unacceptable to release them into the United States) so if you can't prove to the French that you're French I'm guessing they won't. So the end result if you're here illegally, I think, is just ending up in permanent lock-up. There are several countries that also have standing policies of not accepting deportees even if it is true that they're the nation of origin (Vietnam, Jamaica, Laos, and a few others).
	Submit to Quotes

04-15-2010, 09:40 AM	#5843
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	Sure there's a home depot issue. 1. Liberalize legal immigration so that the volume allowed self-supporting entries better matches the demand for self-supporting immigrants. 2. Eliminate the minimum wage so that people can do whatever work they want for whatever wage they want meaning that illegal employment no longer undercuts legal employment on price. and 3. Execute illegal immigrants so the incentive is strongly in favor of using legal means.
	Submit to Quotes

04-15-2010, 09:41 AM	#5844
JWBear Worn Romantic Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Long Beach California Posts: 8,435	I once read where someone compared trying to stop illegal emigration to trying to bail out a flood with a bucket. It might give you some satisfaction to think you're actually doing something, but even if you could accomplish your goal, where will you put all that water where it won't just flood someplace else? __________________ Unrestrained frivolity will lead to the downfall of modern society.
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04-15-2010, 10:56 AM	#5845
JWBear Worn Romantic Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Long Beach California Posts: 8,435	A friend just sent me a text that read "Happy Buying Civilization Day!" __________________ Unrestrained frivolity will lead to the downfall of modern society.
	Submit to Quotes

04-15-2010, 11:11 AM	#5846
Strangler Lewis Doing The Job Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: In a state Posts: 3,956	Scaeagles, is your concern truly with the fact that illegal workers undercut legal workers or simply that their ability to do so brings them here, where they consume more services and cause other problems? If the former, I don't understand it. If there were no such thing as illegal immigration, but there was a class of workers willing or able to work more cheaply than anybody else, every corporation would rush to hire them to discharge their fiduciary duty to their shareholders, and you would say that was part of the free market. Of course, we already have such workers in our work force. They're called Chinese, Malaysians, robots and computers. __________________ Live now-pay later. Diner's Club!
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04-15-2010, 11:40 AM	#5847
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	it is a combination of both, really. The underground economy pays no taxes. While it is a sad fact now that since 47% of wage earners pay no federal income taxes making it perhaps not so uncommon, the underground economy pays no medicare or social security tax either. In avoiding the system, they still consume government resources. Yeah, that pisses me off. The economics of the situation are indeed complex and hourly rates go far beyond this issue. Unions, skilled vs. unskilled, regulation, minimum wages....all come into play in that determination, so I don't think there is an issue of corporations being able to do much of that. Corporations certainly look to keep their salary obligations to a minimum and play within the rules as best they can to seek whatever advantage they can.
	Submit to Quotes

04-15-2010, 12:38 PM	#5850
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	Besides, working under the table is a time honored tradition. I wouldn't have had my first three jobs if were working aboveboard. I would be fine with the United States changing and joining most of the world works in not granting citizenship simply for being born on U.S. soil. But that would probably take an amendment to the constitution to accomplish. And it wouldn't really change anything. "Anchor babies" may be a nice side benefit of illegal immigration but I don't think it is likely a driving force behind it.
	Submit to Quotes