WikiLeaks - Page 4

innerSpaceman · 12-09-2010, 05:40 PM

the bad part is ... maybe I do.

CoasterMatt · 12-09-2010, 06:50 PM

HEY! What's all the smacktalk about Sweden? I've got family there, and have had nothing but great times there. That I can remember.

€uroMeinke · 12-09-2010, 07:13 PM

Netherlands teenager arrested - makes me wonder about the generational divide in this in which many of Anonymous' members/follower not being adults, don't have a political say except to participate in this sort of internet vandalism - are they the equivalent of African child soldiers? don't know but I find the whole thing fascinating.

Alex · 12-09-2010, 10:47 PM

Just in case anybody thinks I was talking about a real case:

Spoiler:

And Steve,

Spoiler:

innerSpaceman · 12-10-2010, 07:49 AM

even better!

JWBear · 12-10-2010, 01:07 PM

Wow... Ron Paul gave a speech that I agree with 100%!

Quote:

Questions to consider:

Number 1: Do the America People deserve know the truth regarding the ongoing wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen?

Number 2: Could a larger question be how can an army private access so much secret information?

Number 3: Why is the hostility mostly directed at Assange, the publisher, and not at our governments failure to protect classified information?

Number 4: Are we getting our moneys worth of the 80 Billion dollars per year spent on intelligence gathering?

Number 5: Which has resulted in the greatest number of deaths: lying us into war or Wikileaks revelations or the release of the Pentagon Papers?

Number 6: If Assange can be convicted of a crime for publishing information that he did not steal, what does this say about the future of the first amendment and the independence of the internet?

Number 7: Could it be that the real reason for the near universal attacks on Wikileaks is more about secretly maintaining a seriously flawed foreign policy of empire than it is about national security?

Number 8: Is there not a huge difference between releasing secret information to help the enemy in a time of declared war, which is treason, and the releasing of information to expose our government lies that promote secret wars, death and corruption?

Number 9: Was it not once considered patriotic to stand up to our government when it is wrong?

Kevy Baby · 12-10-2010, 02:11 PM

You forgot to include his 10th question:

Quote:

Number 10: How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

Alex · 12-10-2010, 02:35 PM

Number 1: Do the America People deserve know the truth regarding the ongoing wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen?

Sure, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the entirety of the Wikileaks exposure. Nor does deserving to know the truth mean the exact documents and raw words should be revealed. Sunlight may be a great disinfectant but it is also a great prevaricator.

Number 2: Could a larger question be how can an army private access so much secret information?

Sure, but this access is to a large degree a result of Congresses insistence following 9/11 that government agencies allow information to flow more freely between them. Unintended consequences are a bitch.

Number 3: Why is the hostility mostly directed at Assange, the publisher, and not at our governments failure to protect classified information?

I don't know. Why's the anger directed at Uncle Bob for announcing at Christmas dinner that Sue is cheating on her husband and not at Aunt Sally for telling Uncle Bob?

That said, I've seen a lot of hostility directed at the government for such a leak being possible.

I'm curious why more anger isn't being directed at the person believed to have leaked it all to him (how many here can name that person)?

Number 4: Are we getting our moneys worth of the 80 Billion dollars per year spent on intelligence gathering?

Always a valid question, I just don't see its particular relevance to this situation as this leak does not include anything "top secret" and therefore the meat of our intelligence gathering remains unrevealed.

Number 5: Which has resulted in the greatest number of deaths: lying us into war or Wikileaks revelations or the release of the Pentagon Papers?

Certainly a valid question, but this is just another form of "this isn't bad because there are other things that are worse."

Number 6: If Assange can be convicted of a crime for publishing information that he did not steal, what does this say about the future of the first amendment and the independence of the internet?

It would say a lot. But frankly I'll wait and see if anything like that actually happens beyond political bluster before I worry about it too much.

Number 7: Could it be that the real reason for the near universal attacks on Wikileaks is more about secretly maintaining a seriously flawed foreign policy of empire than it is about national security?

Frankly, this question doesn't make any sense. But, yes, I suppose it could be about that. But as a rhetorical statement it has no real content.

Personally I think the big contributor to all of the outrage this time around is nothing so grandiose. It is simply that many more people with connections to the political tools of government are embarrassed this time around for having been caught in the act of being undiplomatically honest in supposedly private communications. The previous, much more damaging, leaks were mostly embarrassing to members of the military, who don't have that access to scream bloody murder.

Number 8: Is there not a huge difference between releasing secret information to help the enemy in a time of declared war, which is treason, and the releasing of information to expose our government lies that promote secret wars, death and corruption?

Yes, of course. Is it Paul's contention that every document released falls into the latter category?

Number 9: Was it not once considered patriotic to stand up to our government when it is wrong?

No, I don't think this country has ever really believed that. Subgroups have, but which group tends to shift around based on whether they agree with the government or not. That said, we've always thought it patriotic for people in OTHER countries to stand up when their government is wrong.

My question 10 to Ron Paul would be:

If this release is so patriotic (though applying that word to Assange is as stupid as Palin calling him un-American), and since Paul had access to many of these documents, plus many that are much more secret and informative, what is the source of his moral and patriotic failure in not releasing them himself?

Strangler Lewis · 12-10-2010, 02:41 PM

Someone named Julian Assange is obviously a fictional character in a spy thriller. That we take any of this seriously is proof that we have all entered an alternate reality.

Kevy Baby · 12-10-2010, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis

Someone named Julian Assange is obviously a fictional character in a spy thriller. That we take any of this seriously is proof that we have all entered an alternate reality.

Alright... who took the red pill?

12-09-2010, 05:40 PM	#31
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	the bad part is ... maybe I do.
	Submit to Quotes

12-09-2010, 06:50 PM	#32
CoasterMatt BRAAAAAAAINS! Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: One Step Beyond... Posts: 8,802	HEY! What's all the smacktalk about Sweden? I've got family there, and have had nothing but great times there. That I can remember. __________________ Do you like my photography? Visit photosbymatt.tumblr.com to purchase prints!
	Submit to Quotes

12-09-2010, 07:13 PM	#33
€uroMeinke L'Hédoniste Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: A.S.C.O.T. Posts: 8,671	Netherlands teenager arrested - makes me wonder about the generational divide in this in which many of Anonymous' members/follower not being adults, don't have a political say except to participate in this sort of internet vandalism - are they the equivalent of African child soldiers? don't know but I find the whole thing fascinating. __________________ I would believe only in a God that knows how to Dance. Friedrich Nietzsche
	Submit to Quotes

12-09-2010, 10:47 PM	#34
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	Just in case anybody thinks I was talking about a real case: Spoiler: That last bit about misdiagnosing a child is a plot in the The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo books And Steve, Spoiler: It involves vampires, and in the book the deviance details are significantly expanded from what's in the documentary film.
	Submit to Quotes

12-10-2010, 07:49 AM	#35
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	even better!
	Submit to Quotes

12-10-2010, 02:35 PM	#38
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	Number 1: Do the America People deserve know the truth regarding the ongoing wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen? Sure, but I'm not sure what that has to do with the entirety of the Wikileaks exposure. Nor does deserving to know the truth mean the exact documents and raw words should be revealed. Sunlight may be a great disinfectant but it is also a great prevaricator. Number 2: Could a larger question be how can an army private access so much secret information? Sure, but this access is to a large degree a result of Congresses insistence following 9/11 that government agencies allow information to flow more freely between them. Unintended consequences are a bitch. Number 3: Why is the hostility mostly directed at Assange, the publisher, and not at our governments failure to protect classified information? I don't know. Why's the anger directed at Uncle Bob for announcing at Christmas dinner that Sue is cheating on her husband and not at Aunt Sally for telling Uncle Bob? That said, I've seen a lot of hostility directed at the government for such a leak being possible. I'm curious why more anger isn't being directed at the person believed to have leaked it all to him (how many here can name that person)? Number 4: Are we getting our moneys worth of the 80 Billion dollars per year spent on intelligence gathering? Always a valid question, I just don't see its particular relevance to this situation as this leak does not include anything "top secret" and therefore the meat of our intelligence gathering remains unrevealed. Number 5: Which has resulted in the greatest number of deaths: lying us into war or Wikileaks revelations or the release of the Pentagon Papers? Certainly a valid question, but this is just another form of "this isn't bad because there are other things that are worse." Number 6: If Assange can be convicted of a crime for publishing information that he did not steal, what does this say about the future of the first amendment and the independence of the internet? It would say a lot. But frankly I'll wait and see if anything like that actually happens beyond political bluster before I worry about it too much. Number 7: Could it be that the real reason for the near universal attacks on Wikileaks is more about secretly maintaining a seriously flawed foreign policy of empire than it is about national security? Frankly, this question doesn't make any sense. But, yes, I suppose it could be about that. But as a rhetorical statement it has no real content. Personally I think the big contributor to all of the outrage this time around is nothing so grandiose. It is simply that many more people with connections to the political tools of government are embarrassed this time around for having been caught in the act of being undiplomatically honest in supposedly private communications. The previous, much more damaging, leaks were mostly embarrassing to members of the military, who don't have that access to scream bloody murder. Number 8: Is there not a huge difference between releasing secret information to help the enemy in a time of declared war, which is treason, and the releasing of information to expose our government lies that promote secret wars, death and corruption? Yes, of course. Is it Paul's contention that every document released falls into the latter category? Number 9: Was it not once considered patriotic to stand up to our government when it is wrong? No, I don't think this country has ever really believed that. Subgroups have, but which group tends to shift around based on whether they agree with the government or not. That said, we've always thought it patriotic for people in OTHER countries to stand up when their government is wrong. My question 10 to Ron Paul would be: If this release is so patriotic (though applying that word to Assange is as stupid as Palin calling him un-American), and since Paul had access to many of these documents, plus many that are much more secret and informative, what is the source of his moral and patriotic failure in not releasing them himself?
	Submit to Quotes

12-10-2010, 02:41 PM	#39
Strangler Lewis Doing The Job Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: In a state Posts: 3,956	Someone named Julian Assange is obviously a fictional character in a spy thriller. That we take any of this seriously is proof that we have all entered an alternate reality. __________________ Live now-pay later. Diner's Club!
	Submit to Quotes