The Gay Thread

[JWBear]

I was extremely hurt when I read CP's comment this morning. I shouldn't have lashed back, but I did. I apologize.

I am still somewhat puzzled by everyone's reaction to what I said. It was humor, people. Lighten up.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by JWBear

I am still somewhat puzzled by everyone's reaction to what I said. It was humor, people. Lighten up.

Maybe it has something to do with the somewhat unpleasant thought that you might in the future (or now?I'm not sure at what age you feel like a boy's actions start to reflect on such matters) you might be watching my pre-pubescent son's behaviors and judging what they mean about his sexual preferences.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

It's pretty obvious that you weren't joking. Nice try though. Defensive when backed into a corner then brushing it off...we've seen this before from you. Wouldn't it be easier to admit a mistake and apologize?

Even joking, telling a child she is one thing or another is very limiting. We all do it from time to time and it's something I'm training myself to avoid. Even repeating things as innocent as "he's good at math but not as good at reading" pidgeonholes him as specificially being a math person, setting him up to let his reading skills lag while working feverishly to keep his math skills up to some inner expecation.

If a toddler kicks a ball and you tell him "you're an athlete", or say to a 10 year old "you're not good at sports" when he misses a soccer goal, you're not only influencing his personal view of himself, you're telling him something that is not really being shown, and demonstrating that just one instance of behavior is enough to whitewash his entire persona and reflect either well or badly on him. Talk about pressure.....

....never mind if we're actually talking about a person's sexuality.

A far better take - "You kicked that ball!" "We can work on your goal shooting." "Aren't those flowers pretty?"

[SzczerbiakManiac]

According to The Williams Institute and posted on The Advocate, here are 10 Facts About America's Gays:

1. 9 million LGBT people live in the U.S., 3.8 % of the adult population.
2. LGBT people are racially, ethnically, and geographically diverse: 1 in 4 are people of color and same-sex couples have identified themselves on the Census in 99% of U.S. counties.
3. A substantial percentage of LGBT people are raising children: 1 in 5 same-sex couples and 6% of children in foster care are being raised by LGB people.
4. LGB people are serving in the Armed Forces: 71,000 are currently serving, and there are over 1 million LGB veterans in the U.S.
5. 70,000 same-sex couples have gotten married in the U.S.; another 90,000 have entered into civil unions and domestic partnerships.
6. The annual divorce rate for same-sex couples and different-sex married couples is similar — about 2%.
7. LGBT people are not more affluent. Gay men earn 10% to 23% less, on average, than heterosexual men. Children of same-sex couples are twice as likely to live in poverty.
8. Rates of hate crimes and employment discrimination against LGBT people are similar to or higher than for other protected groups. Until the Williams Institute, no one analyzed this data on a per capita basis, taking into account the smaller size of the LGBT population.
9. "Don't ask, don't tell" has cost taxpayers over $500 million since it started being enforced in 1994.
10. If all 50 states and the federal government recognized marriage for same-sex couples, the federal budget would benefit by over $1 billion each year.

Half a Billion dollars wasted on Don't Ask, Don't Tell. fücking awesome....

[innerSpaceman]

I take issue with conclusion No. 1, or rather feel it needs a clarification. 3.8% of the American adult population identify as LGBT, but since 8.5% are having same-sex sex, I think that lower number is misleading.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Great list.

Originally Posted by SzczerbiakManiac

If all 50 states and the federal government recognized marriage for same-sex couples, the federal budget would benefit by over $1 billion each year.

How does this work? I thought that marriage gave you a tax break. Are we talking about revenue from businesses that are in the wedding industry?

[Strangler Lewis]

The concept of the "marriage penalty," which is the source of endless high comedy about old people shacking up, is to the contrary.

[SzczerbiakManiac]

I've never liked Kobe Bryant. I think he's an asshole and if not a rapist, definitely an adulterer. But now I have a new reason to dislike this punk. Last night he was caught on camera calling a ref a "fücking faggot" (at the 35 second mark).

GLAAD issued a response

The NBA fined him $100,000

And then Kobe('s people?) issued this well-scripted apology:

What I said last night should not be taken literally. My actions were out of frustration during the heat of the game, period. The words expressed do NOT reflect my feelings towards the gay and lesbian communities and were NOT meant to offend anyone.

Not meant to be taken literally? Is he trying to quote Jon Kyl?

[innerSpaceman]

In response to Kobe's "remark," former NBA player John Amaechi had this to say:

Originally Posted by John Amaedchi

The problem we have now is because of the way we don't address homophobia, the ultimate insult to a man is to tell them either they're like a woman or worse, that they're gay.

We have to take it as unacceptable as a white person screaming the N-word at a black person. … I can tell you that I've been called a f——- fairly routinely, and yet people seem to hold off on calling me the N-word. We've got to mirror that progress.

I find this interesting in light of a facebook conversation yesterday between me, Gemini Cricket, Morrigoon and Chernabog about gay insults vs. harmless phrases. Brad has (in the past, at least) deplored the use of "that's go gay" as a version of lame accusation that relies on negative views of gay stereotypes. I, on the other hand, deplore when gay men refer to other gay men as "girls," feeling it riffs too directly on the insult that gay men are equivalent to women (even though there's absolutely nothing wrong (far from it) with being a women. It's just that gay men aren't.


Anyway, it seems to me like an interesting tangent of discussion ... perhaps.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I see both sides. While I do think that removing that use of the F word is a good social goal to have, and the NBA making a public statement that it won't be tolerated is a good thing, I don't think it reflects as badly on Kobe as (to use the obvious parallel) a white person calling a black person the N word.

I think the "he comes from a different era" defense, as lame is it often sounds, applies. He's my age. When I grew up, that word was not impressed with level of stigma as maybe it should have been. And, even more importantly, it was, in my neck of the woods at least, most often not used in a way that really was intended to connote sexuality. And while I as a more enlightened adult recognize that even such second/third hand denigration shouldn't be acceptable ("F word" means "gay" and gays are bad, therefore by calling you the F word I'm calling you bad), I see a gulf between, "You, black man, are an N word" and, "You, person whose sexuality is likely hetero but is actually unknown to me are an asshole so I'm calling you a F word because that's a near-synonym to asshole in my head".

Again, I want to stress, the NBA and people in general are not wrong to cringe at its use and to strongly discourage it and to continue to work to attach N word level stigma to it. But I don't think that Kobe's use of it is indicative of any particularly strong homophobic tendancies. Lord knows I was guilty of its use for most of my life, and it's still part of my reflexive language (I cringe at myself any time I think it, or think "gay" when I see something effeminate).