Societal norms, the Moral Majority and a rant that feels so good

[Kevy Baby]

Sac:

Ya gotta stop beating around the bush on these things. If ya got something to say, just come out and say it!

Seriously; I am curious what ugliness (besides the usual myoptic one-sidedness of the [im]Moral [not a] Majority) were subjected to.

[SacTown Chronic]

Kevy, basically it was a couple telling us that the inner workings of our marriage are wrong because it is different than their marriage. Does that make sense?

It wasn't so much that they wanted to force their morals on us (as if they even know what our morals and standards are) as it was that they looked at our marriage, noticed it was different than their marriage and decided we were living wrong and they needed to tell us. And of course they went about it the wrong way and went from 0 to self-righteous in 5.3 seconds. It burns my ass because our marriage is really, really strong and i don't need these a-holes taking a superficial look at our life together and telling us how to live our lives.

It's been bugging me and I suspected that venting would help me get over it. And I can already feel the healing begin (but that might just be GC's prayers kicking in).

[Alex]

I think we don't do enough judging of other people and when we do, we don't do it correctly. First, too many of us expect the government to endorse our judgements which is wrong. And another too many of us feel that just because we have judged someone and decided we don't want to interact with them that it is important that this person be told that they've been judged and found lacking.

There are a lot of people I don't like because of the way they behave (and frequently it is for doing things that I consider pefectly acceptable personal decisions: such as heavy recreational drug use), I just don't feel it necessary to tell them about it. So, the fact that I don't approve doesn't mean I expect them to change. I just don't socialize with them.

But societal norms for public interaction are important and judging is important.

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

I think we don't do enough judging of other people and when we do, we don't do it correctly.

I disagree (with the first part). I think that too many people rush to judgement of others based solely on their own limited perspective. A person might judge a couple that is engaged in a small argument as having a troubled marriage. In reality, the couple may very well have a very stable, healthy marriage. It is normal to have disagreements and it is healthy to discuss them. And it is healthy to occassionally let one's emotions get the best of them. (Definitely not even thinking that was the case of the OP; just using this as a random example to support my argument.)

Also, I think that people have a propensity to judge others when in reality it is just their own, often dis-owned, issues that are coming to light. If somebody is often seeing others as loud mouths, the probability is fair that the individual making those accusations is her/himself a blow-hard.

One of the largest issues I have with many organized religions is their self-view of the world. They often believe that their way is the ONLY way (often ultimately having nothing to do with spirituality, which is what religion is all about), and that all others must be quelled.

[wendybeth]

I agree with KB- there is too much judging, too much meddling and too many sanctimonious assholes running around proclaiming that their way is the only way. I suppose that's human nature, and the reason for the admonition of "Judge not, lest ye be judged".

[Alex]

Hey, by no means am I saying that people are necessarily good at judging others. Judging does not make one right. But we all do it and people have gotten mighty screwed up about what the right way to do it is, primarily by expecting the government to enforce our individual views on what proper behavior is. Also, the scope has gotten out of whack.

Somehow we have turned it around to where it is more acceptable to judge private behavior than public behavior.

I'm a very judgmental person, I just don't think my judgments should carry much weight with other people and simply try to use them to decide how I will live my life.

My problem with most organized religions (and most of the unorganized ones) is their insistence on the existence of a supernatural realm.

[wendybeth]

Perhaps the reason why we see so few examples of correct judging is that the only correct way to do so is to refrain from doing so.


Did that make any sense? Lol- the cold meds are kicking in!

[Alex]

To refrain from judging is to have a life with no boundaries.

Is it wrong to stop hanging out with Bob because he's cheating on his wife? That's judgement. Is it wrong to not let your son spend the night at Greg's house, because Greg sells pot at school? That's judgement.

The only right way, in my opinion, to judge private behavior in others is through personal behavior of your own. There are two ways to judge public behavior in others: either you behave as you would with private behavior or society collectively decide on civil punishment (as we do with murder, rape, burglary, etc.). My personal libertarian view is that we've expanded societal civil punishment beyond its useful boundaries not just in the public sphere but into the private sphere where it doesn't belong at all.

But I have a strong moral ethic (just not a standard one) and I am constantly judging others by it and choose not to associate with those who fall too far from it. To not judge is to say that there is no such thing as right and wrong. I just say that not everything is a matter of right and wrong.

I don't know what the marital structure is in the OP, so I have no idea whether I think it falls into the category of something I would judge. But probably not.

[Capt Jack]

Originally Posted by wendybeth

Perhaps the reason why we see so few examples of correct judging is that the only correct way to do so is to refrain from doing so.


Did that make any sense?

yup. while Im not terribly religious, there is one quote Ive learned to live by

"Judge not, lest ye be judged"

Most who do judge others with abandon are loathe to have the mirror held up to them as they're afraid of what they'll see. Its just sooo much easier to cast judgement on someone else than to look at ones self objectively and critique self first, others second. A great many people I think simply cant. Others wont.

still others have no clue what Im talking about.
I think Im in that last group.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

Somehow we have turned it around to where it is more acceptable to judge private behavior than public behavior.

I'm a very judgmental person, I just don't think my judgments should carry much weight with other people and simply try to use them to decide how I will live my life.

Those two statements sum up my feelings exactly. Sure, I have a set of morals that I believe to be "right" that I live my life by, but I apply those morals to myself and do not expext others to abide by them. I definitely think they should, but I certainly am not so arrogant as to think that I've got all the answers and that it's my place to tell others how to live. Especially when it comes to things that are private decissions. If we're talking about public behavior that has some effect on other people, I'm more vocal about my judgement. But even then, at most I'll say my peace once and they can take it or leave it. If they leave it, like Alex, I make MY decission whether whatever it is is something that will keep me from socializing with them. But that's my decission, I don't expect the person to change.