Riding crop costumes go bye bye

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

Completely inappropriate.

The bulk of this thread is about inappropriateness. The guy in that photo has allowed himself to get far too large (he is not taking responsibility for his own actions), and deserves to have fun poked at his size.

I am fat (though not as large as the photo). A month-and-a-half ago I weighed 270 pounds and I am down to about 240. I am still fat. So are some of the people posting in this thread. I accept the fact that I am not as attractive as "thinner" people. I don't believe I am ugly though.

But most importantly, I accept responsibility for my size. AND I accept responsibility that my size is less attractive than someone smaller than me. While it is easy to point blame at "the media," the bottom line is that, for the most part, the media just gives people what they want. And for the most part, people would prefer to look at thinner, HEALTHIER people than an overweight, out of shape person.

We as human's think that "survival of the fittest" only applies to the animal world. But it applies to ourselves as well. While not an absolute truism, fat people are less fit. And our base instinct drives us to be more attracted to a healthy partner than a not so healthy one (whether we choose to admit it or not). It is in our genes; we cannot help it. And to deny it is a falacy.

Anyone who thinks that they are "OK" physically being 50+ pounds overweight is fooling themselves. I accepted that I was out of shape, finally decided I would no longer accept it for myself, and did what I could to correct it (please note that I am still fat and overweight). Until I could accept my own responsibility for how I looked (and felt), I was not going to be able to change how I looked (and felt).

The core theme of this thread has been (in my interpretation at least) about whether "thin" is more attractive than "fat." I, as a fat guy, say that this is true. It doesn't mean that I am ugly though! Marilyn vos Savant is smarter than me; it doesn't mean that I am stupid.

And as somebody has already said (I am sorry I am not giving proper credit: I don't have the patience to look for the post); physical attractiveness is not the only trait that we as humans look for: we also look for emotional and intellectual traits that attract us as well. To be honest, while I can enjoy the eye candy of say Jessica Simpson, I cannot really be "turned on" by her because she strikes me as an idiot without any real sense of reality. My wife may not be ready to be a Playboy centerfold without any airbrushing, but to me she is the sexiest woman on earth.

[€uroMeinke]

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

The bulk of this thread is about inappropriateness. The guy in that photo has allowed himself to get far too large (he is not taking responsibility for his own actions), and deserves to have fun poked at his size.

The word desrves bothers me - I don't think anyone deserves to be ridiculed, though some ought to expect it. "Deserve" is far to judgemental and creepy a term for me.

The core theme of this thread has been (in my interpretation at least) about whether "thin" is more attractive than "fat." I, as a fat guy, say that this is true.

And that's great - for you. I think it's clear there are people who feel otherwise.

My beef all along has been the equation of weight or dress size to attractiveness and the fact that while there may be an overriding cultural perception of what constitues "beauty" it's by no means a universal - so why treat it as such, and furthermore why expect Disneyland to hire someone based on it?

I guess I kind of have to wonder if people here really think their experience at the park has suffered becasue the CMs have been less attractive? I guess they could only hire supermodels, but I bet that costs more than tailoring costumes to be more attractive (presumably - still haven't seen the outfits)

And while I'm at it - how does changing a skirt length from above the knees to below the knees impact attractiveness of a CM based on weight? Leg length or the presence of nobby knees perhaps, but weight? Similarly, what difference does a blue plaid vs red plaid impact attractiveness based on weight, if anything skin tone should be a consideration for this factor.

If you want to talk about the declining health of America due to the increased obesity of it's population great, start a thread - but to pin such things on a redesign of a Disney Costume is ludicrous.

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke

The word deserves bothers me - I don't think anyone deserves to be ridiculed, though some ought to expect it. "Deserve" is far to judgemental and creepy a term for me.

I stick by the word as I (intentionally) didn't say HE deserved to be ridiculed, I said his SIZE did. Just as by my public posting can be criticised, judged, maligned, that the picture is publiclly available leaves room for that man's size open to criticism. To be honest, I posted it more for the humourous impact (which some found in poor taste), but the response drove my own comments.

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke

And that's great - for you. I think it's clear there are people who feel otherwise.

I didn't claim to speak for anyone. I very clearly deliniated that the opinions were my own. I stated them knowing that others would not agree with them (though not BECAUSE they would).

And conversly, I stated that my size problem is my own doing. While I can blame it on the depression I often fight, the extreme stress I endure at work, that "my metabolism is slow" or any other factors, I ultimately know that I am the only one responsible for the state I am in. And I believe that many people, instead of accepting responsibility for themselves, prefer to pass blame to someone/something else. Alcoholism, drug addiction, propensity for murder, et. al. is not the fault of society - it is the fault of the person afflicted by it. Some chose to take responsibility for themselves and do something about (AA, counseling, seek help in any way, etc.) and others chose to blame others and/or wallow in their own depths.

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke

If you want to talk about the declining health of America due to the increased obesity of it's population great, start a thread - but to pin such things on a redesign of a Disney Costume is ludicrous.

While I did not specifically bring in the American obesity problem to this thread, I can see how you might believe that I was making such an association. However, this thread long ago ceased being just ABOUT Disney's move (and Al Lutz's commentary on it) and DID become about human physical size and perceptions thereof. I simply attempted to point out the core basis that probably exists behind such perceptions and how they may not be *quite* as shallow and baseless as might be thought. Our biology, our natural insticts, contribute to our perceptions.

For the record, I know many "larger" people whom I like much more than some thin and healthy people I know (and conversely I know many thin and healthy people whom I like very much and some fat people who are complete imbeciles). I chose my friends based on whether I like them; not on what dress size or pants size they wear.

[innerSpaceman]

Yeah, I think this thread has morphed away from the Disney decision to a much more interesting conversation.

(No one has commented, btw, that blue is going to be far less noticeable in a crowd than red. I believe red was chosen for 'Tour Guide' for the same reason they wield the riding crop: Ask any tangle-haired middle ager what prime piece of paraphenalia is need to conduct a tour. It's all to do with visibility to your touring guests, and going from red to blue seems to fly in the face of touring color logic.)




Back to the better topic, though.

1955 or 2005, casting crising or glut of potentials, I believe most employers, most people will select their perception of beauty once all other factors are equal (and, in many cases, before reaching that stage of equality).

Despite the current casting crisis, I still believe the better-looking job candidate has a better chance of being hired. Of course, considering that Disneyland is apparently hiring people not qualified to even perform their jobs, I suppose the factor of measuring good-looks is pretty much out the window. I do not bemoan that. First and foremost, I think CMs should be qualified for their positions and, beyond that, I don't much care if they are standardly beautiful. It should be noted that I rarely see anybody I consider downright ugly (though, ahem, I have the good fortune of living in Southern California).


But Kevy was right (imo) about a couple of things. There is an innate standard of beauty encoded in our genes ... and whether it's based on facial symmetry, body weight, hip size ratio or muscle tone - - it's there and it's not going away. (Fortunately, we can choose to be HUMAN and use our minds and to overcome what our instincts tell us)

He's also right about fat people being primarily responsible for being overweight. Frankly, I think that's why this is a touchy subject ... and why a thread about height or sexual orientation or hair color wouldn't get people nearly as upset, even though people may be unhappy with their height or hair color or sexual orientation.

I think many people who are overweight feel guilty about it, and feel as if they should be doing something about it. Hence, the subject can push a lot of emotional buttons ... and I regret if anyone has been made to feel bad. Unless you approach the health affects territory discussed in Lashbear's spin-off thread, there's nothing inherently wrong with being fat. But it IS (in most cases) a matter of personal responsiblity and choice.

[SacTown Chronic]

Hate to tell you, Fingercuffs, but Crystal says you'll get that riding crop back when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.

[MickeyLumbo]

you sound so much like a conservative spokesperson for a gun club.

HA. the truth is out.

and i bet you just love me for my child bearing hips too.

[€uroMeinke]

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

He's also right about fat people being primarily responsible for being overweight. Frankly, I think that's why this is a touchy subject ... and why a thread about height or sexual orientation or hair color wouldn't get people nearly as upset, even though people may be unhappy with their height or hair color or sexual orientation.

I'm not so sure here at least with sexual orientation. Some of the arguments remind me of the Christian "Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin" arguments I've seen on other boards. That is they have no problem with gay people it's just gay behavior they have issue with - and certainly if one can refrain from sex much easier than refrain from eating? (BTW I think those arguments have gotten much more heated than this one)

I'm not sure how much "responsibility" plays in the reactions as personal body image. People who are confident about themselves are just plain sexier than those who aren't regardless of actual beauty metrics or standards.

Being an obese person myself, I've always thought myself "large" even during my college days when I lost a lot of weight I thought that of myself, and saw it in pictures taken of me at the time. Today when I look at those pics, I wonder how I could have possibly thought that about myself when the photographic evidence is so contrary to my percieved reality of the time. There is some odd psychology at play so that I think people often do feel helpless in their attempts to loose weight.

When we talked about this offline last night you mentioned "guilt" as a factor, but I wonder if it's really shame. Not so much guilt that you can't loose the weight, but shame that you gained it in the first place. I'd say for me anyway, that's closer to my personal experience - when I think about those things anyway.

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke

Being an obese person myself, I've always thought myself "large" even during my college days when I lost a lot of weight I thought that of myself, and saw it in pictures taken of me at the time. Today when I look at those pics, I wonder how I could have possibly thought that about myself when the photographic evidence is so contrary to my percieved reality of the time. There is some odd psychology at play so that I think people often do feel helpless in their attempts to loose weight.

Amen to that. From ages 15 to 21 I weighed 130 - 140 pounds (I'm 5'8"). Now, I don't know if that qualifies as "skinny" or not, but I wasn't medically overweight. I never stopped seeing myself as fat. Now I look back and kick myself for not appreciating my body more.

I think what people who have never been overweight don't realize is how easily the weight can pile on, especially if you've done a lot of screwy dieting in the past that messed up your metabolism. I gained nothing the first six months of each pregnancy, then 40 pounds the last three months. Yet I didn't change my eating habits at all. Turns out I had something weird going on with my body, but that really doesn't make me feel better, nor does it make the weight easier to lose.

I also think that if you've never faced the challenge then you don't really know how difficult it is to lose weight. If you have a lot to lose, it can be a daunting task. Food is much more than just something to feed your body in our culture. It's a very social thing. I imagine that some can feel a sort of disconnect when dieting.

I think it's a sensitive topic because it's not ok to judge someone for being short or bald or tall or gay, but it somehow is ok to judge them for being fat. Because after all, it's their own damn fault anyways, right?

[Alex]

Most of the time, yes it is.

Yes, there are plenty of people who are fat for medical reasons, but not nearly so many as make that claim. I'm fat because I eat poorly and don't exercise enough (and when I do exercise I prefer strength training to aerobic activity).

I should be judged because I'm fat, I'm fat because of a character flaw. I'm fat when I don't want to be because I'm too lazy to be otherwise. No, losing weight is not easy (though for the 18 months I really stuck to a solid exercise regime I lost 70 pounds without any real dieting) but that doesn't make it less of a choice.

But for ease of thinking and politeness, I just act as if I'm the only one who chooses to be fat and every other fat person is fat due to the steroids they're taking for some rare medical malady of which I'm unaware (just like Jerry Lewis).

I look at being fat kind of the same way I look at bad dental hygeine. Yes, some people have conditions that make it very, very difficult to keep their teeth in good order (I had a coworker who had a condition that caused his own saliva to yellow his teeth). But most people who have filthy teeth are in that state because of the way they choose to live their lives. If they have disgusting teeth because they want to have filthy teeth, more power to them.

Same with fatness. If you're fat because you want to be fat, great. If you're fat because your body can't help it for some reason, then my condolences. But if you're fat when you don't want to be fat and you simply aren't willing to do the things that will make you not be fat, then you don't really get sympathy from me (though I'm not going to treat you rudely for it or anything). And a lot of people in this last category seem to want sympathy (such as the coworker who once bitched to me about how hard it is to lose weight while eating fetuccine alfredo with tiramisu for dessert).

I have no idea into which categories the various fat people posting in this thread fall, and it doesn't really matter. But since the rhetorical question above seems to assume what I think is the wrong answer, I felt an urge to respond. And as always, once responding to respond too long.

[MickeyLumbo]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

I also think that if you've never faced the challenge then you don't really know how difficult it is to lose weight. If you have a lot to lose, it can be a daunting task. Food is much more than just something to feed your body in our culture. It's a very social thing. I imagine that some can feel a sort of disconnect when dieting.

I think it's a sensitive topic because it's not ok to judge someone for being short or bald or tall or gay, but it somehow is ok to judge them for being fat. Because after all, it's their own damn fault anyways, right?

you are so correct. i see it especially at the parties i attend with all the goodies and finger foods, etc... i want them so much, like everybody else, but, i must carefully limit and monitor every bite. it sucks.

but i still don't wanna see a fat Tarzan on a float.