Blow for national security, or a success for privacy?

Name · 12-16-2005, 04:50 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/....ap/index.html

Seems the patriot act reautorization did not make it thru the senate, personally, I think its a good thing, as safety and security can't be regulated anyway. and its a major success for privacy rights and liberty all together...

But that's just my opinion.

Ghoulish Delight · 12-16-2005, 04:58 PM

Agreed, Name. Especially in light of the other news of the day, that Bush authorized secret surveilance on at least hundreds, possibly thousands, of U.S. citizens by the NSA with no warrant or court order of any sort.

I keep checking my calander to make sure it didn't suddenly roll back to 1984.

Alex · 12-16-2005, 05:19 PM

As far as the surveillance story goes, it calls to mind a story (I think by Dahlia Lithwick at Slate) shortly after 9/11 about how using law enforcement tools would be an issue when the goal is no longer arrest and conviction but prevention.

Because most of the evidentiary rules on warrants etc. simply prevent the information from being used to get a conviction. If the authorities aren't concerned about tainting eventual criminal/civil action then there is much that they could do that they otherwise wouldn't.

To a degree I feel for the government. We simultaneously want them to never allow anything bad to happen and to also leave us the **** alone.

The Patriot Act wasn't nearly as bad as its reputation on the left and not nearly so pure as its reputation on the right (yes, I actually read the damn thing), but there were major flaws with it and while ideally I'd prefer the bad be weeded out in favor of the good, if it has to be a whole package then better that it all go down.

innerSpaceman · 12-16-2005, 05:56 PM

Much as I admire our Constitution, can we just be rid of the House of Representatives and stick with the much-more-suitable-to-govern Senate? Ya know, like in Roman times or sumthin?

On a side note, whether the Patriot Act is law or not, intelligence and law enforcement officials will continue to do whatever the frell they want. It was just widely reported last week that the NSA (National Security Agency) has been doing wiretaps on U.S. citizens without court warrant, totally outside even the realm of the Patriot Act, and completely illegally.

I suppose it's better not to have such facist tools as the Patriot Act codified into law, but the facist government will do as it pleases anyway.

scaeagles · 12-17-2005, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

Much as I admire our Constitution, can we just be rid of the House of Representatives and stick with the much-more-suitable-to-govern Senate?

I think the House has been changed from what it was originally supposed to be. The Senate was for the career politicians - the House was for the real representatives of the people, and not designed for one person to hold onto the seat for all eternity. Thus the two year terms.

Motorboat Cruiser · 12-17-2005, 09:19 PM

I am finding the recent reports that Bush authorized wiretaps against US citizens extremely troubling. From all that I have read, this action was clearly illegal. The president knew what the law was and knowingly and secretly violated it. They could have obtained warrants for those they wanted to monitor but chose not to take that route.

I'm truly at a loss for words. The only thing that is positive is that it has served as a wake-up call as to how dangerous some of the provisions of the Patriot Act actually are. I'm happy to see that its fate is now in question as people are quite uneasy about extending it in light of this wiretapping story.

Still, I think the president must be held accountable for his actions. I doubt that will happen but it damn well should.

Alex · 12-17-2005, 11:25 PM

It will be interesting to know if the spokesman's claim that there was congressional oversight of all such activities bears out. If so there are another 15 (I think) congressman who were aware of it and said nothing.

Ghoulish Delight · 12-19-2005, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

It will be interesting to know if the spokesman's claim that there was congressional oversight of all such activities bears out. If so there are another 15 (I think) congressman who were aware of it and said nothing.

And they should be removed from office right along with Bush, imo.

12-16-2005, 04:50 PM	#1
Name Title Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: here Posts: 779	Blow for national security, or a success for privacy? http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/....ap/index.html Seems the patriot act reautorization did not make it thru the senate, personally, I think its a good thing, as safety and security can't be regulated anyway. and its a major success for privacy rights and liberty all together... But that's just my opinion. __________________ Signature
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12-16-2005, 04:58 PM	#2
Ghoulish Delight I Floop the Pig Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Alternative Swankstyle Posts: 19,348	Agreed, Name. Especially in light of the other news of the day, that Bush authorized secret surveilance on at least hundreds, possibly thousands, of U.S. citizens by the NSA with no warrant or court order of any sort. I keep checking my calander to make sure it didn't suddenly roll back to 1984. __________________ 'He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.' -TJ
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12-16-2005, 05:19 PM	#3
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	As far as the surveillance story goes, it calls to mind a story (I think by Dahlia Lithwick at Slate) shortly after 9/11 about how using law enforcement tools would be an issue when the goal is no longer arrest and conviction but prevention. Because most of the evidentiary rules on warrants etc. simply prevent the information from being used to get a conviction. If the authorities aren't concerned about tainting eventual criminal/civil action then there is much that they could do that they otherwise wouldn't. To a degree I feel for the government. We simultaneously want them to never allow anything bad to happen and to also leave us the **** alone. The Patriot Act wasn't nearly as bad as its reputation on the left and not nearly so pure as its reputation on the right (yes, I actually read the damn thing), but there were major flaws with it and while ideally I'd prefer the bad be weeded out in favor of the good, if it has to be a whole package then better that it all go down.
	Submit to Quotes

12-16-2005, 05:56 PM	#4
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	Much as I admire our Constitution, can we just be rid of the House of Representatives and stick with the much-more-suitable-to-govern Senate? Ya know, like in Roman times or sumthin? On a side note, whether the Patriot Act is law or not, intelligence and law enforcement officials will continue to do whatever the frell they want. It was just widely reported last week that the NSA (National Security Agency) has been doing wiretaps on U.S. citizens without court warrant, totally outside even the realm of the Patriot Act, and completely illegally. I suppose it's better not to have such facist tools as the Patriot Act codified into law, but the facist government will do as it pleases anyway.
	Submit to Quotes

12-17-2005, 09:19 PM	#6
Motorboat Cruiser Cruiser of Motorboats Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: So Cal Posts: 3,665	I am finding the recent reports that Bush authorized wiretaps against US citizens extremely troubling. From all that I have read, this action was clearly illegal. The president knew what the law was and knowingly and secretly violated it. They could have obtained warrants for those they wanted to monitor but chose not to take that route. I'm truly at a loss for words. The only thing that is positive is that it has served as a wake-up call as to how dangerous some of the provisions of the Patriot Act actually are. I'm happy to see that its fate is now in question as people are quite uneasy about extending it in light of this wiretapping story. Still, I think the president must be held accountable for his actions. I doubt that will happen but it damn well should.
	Submit to Quotes

12-17-2005, 11:25 PM	#7
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	It will be interesting to know if the spokesman's claim that there was congressional oversight of all such activities bears out. If so there are another 15 (I think) congressman who were aware of it and said nothing.
	Submit to Quotes