The random political thoughts thread - Page 5

Alex · 02-09-2006, 10:38 AM

Lincoln abused civil liberties to a much greater extent than anything we're yet aware of from the president.

Not that this makes current behaviors ok, but so far what Bush has done is child's play compared to Lincoln.

scaeagles · 02-09-2006, 10:41 AM

I've posted the some of the extent of what Lincoln did in other threads. It included suspension of habeas corpus, imprisonment of journalists who supported secession of union states, imprisonment of political opponents, government seizure of newspapers......yet he is considered to be one of the greatest Presidents of all time.

SacTown Chronic · 02-09-2006, 11:04 AM

Did Lincoln get a lot of votes from women and blacks?

innerSpaceman · 02-09-2006, 11:19 AM

Um, remind me again when Lincoln was president? For that matter, why don't you all remind me when Teddy Roosevelt was president? I believe he was the most recent of Gonzales's examples of wartime powermonger presidents.

And my point is not simply that we shouldn't repeat ancient history ... Someone remind me when Nixon was president! It was during my freaking lifetime, so does that mean it's ok for modern presidents to model their power-usurpation tactics after Nixon?

(There's little I loathe more than the lamest of excuses, 'That's the way it's always been done.')

scaeagles · 02-09-2006, 11:27 AM

And something i loathe as lame is the belief that "history begins with me". We can talk about very recent history, being the prior administration, but I get in trouble for that.

Sure - change what's being done now if that suits you (or whomever). Shout from the rooftops about the invasion of privacy and the vulnerability of our civil rights. Honestly, more power to you.

My biggest laugh from all of this is the supposed shock amongst the media and pundits that this is something new.

Not Afraid · 02-09-2006, 11:28 AM

I doesn't have to me new to be shocking.

innerSpaceman · 02-09-2006, 12:25 PM

I remember there being a big wake-up call in this country after Watergate that finally got the message to everyone that politics were corrupt at the highest levels. It was (and remains) a watershed ... which is why - to this day - every single scandal is named "something-gate."

The shock and outrage about political corruption is not about it being new, but about it daring to continue once having been exposed. There's been a much more commonly American demand that corrupt shenanigans STOP, and far more outrage when it's shown they they have not.

Nephythys · 02-09-2006, 12:43 PM

It's far more amusing to me how easily people believe what they want to believe-even if the truth is something far different.

Random political thought-to hell with comparing this to past administrations (ahem- echelon ahem)- what I am looking forward to is the result of the hearings......

Cadaverous Pallor · 02-09-2006, 12:51 PM

My random (yet constant) political thought:

I'm not shocked by wiretaps, or lobbying, or corruption, or the abuse of power, or warmongering, or greed, or anything else. I'm not shocked, I'm just saddened. It reminds me that we are not evolving, we are not growing, we are not fixing anything. We're riding the pendulum of human stupidity. I'm willing to bet that the worldwide percentage of those that are truly honest/kind/happy is the same as it ever was. Ever, in the history of humankind.

Maybe it's not a political thought after all

Alex · 02-09-2006, 12:55 PM

140 years ago isn't ancient history. That said, what Lincoln or Washington or Jefferson did does not necessarily make what Bush does right or wrong.

It does, however, show that history tends to forgive them if the people believe them to have acted in the greater good.

The only reason I said what I did was the mocking of the idea that these earlier presidents at least provide precedent (if not necessarily justification) for what it appears Bush is doing.

I've not seen much demand that corrupt politics stop. Mostly just that corrupt politics by the other side stop. When the Democrats next hold most of the major offices then 99% of the people will immediately switch sides on just about evrey issue.

02-09-2006, 10:38 AM	#41
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	Lincoln abused civil liberties to a much greater extent than anything we're yet aware of from the president. Not that this makes current behaviors ok, but so far what Bush has done is child's play compared to Lincoln.
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02-09-2006, 10:41 AM	#42
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	I've posted the some of the extent of what Lincoln did in other threads. It included suspension of habeas corpus, imprisonment of journalists who supported secession of union states, imprisonment of political opponents, government seizure of newspapers......yet he is considered to be one of the greatest Presidents of all time.
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02-09-2006, 11:04 AM	#43
SacTown Chronic the myth of the dream Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,217	Did Lincoln get a lot of votes from women and blacks? __________________ Is it the fingers, or the brain that you're teaching a lesson?
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02-09-2006, 11:19 AM	#44
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	Um, remind me again when Lincoln was president? For that matter, why don't you all remind me when Teddy Roosevelt was president? I believe he was the most recent of Gonzales's examples of wartime powermonger presidents. And my point is not simply that we shouldn't repeat ancient history ... Someone remind me when Nixon was president! It was during my freaking lifetime, so does that mean it's ok for modern presidents to model their power-usurpation tactics after Nixon? (There's little I loathe more than the lamest of excuses, 'That's the way it's always been done.')
	Submit to Quotes

02-09-2006, 11:27 AM	#45
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	And something i loathe as lame is the belief that "history begins with me". We can talk about very recent history, being the prior administration, but I get in trouble for that. Sure - change what's being done now if that suits you (or whomever). Shout from the rooftops about the invasion of privacy and the vulnerability of our civil rights. Honestly, more power to you. My biggest laugh from all of this is the supposed shock amongst the media and pundits that this is something new.
	Submit to Quotes

02-09-2006, 11:28 AM	#46
Not Afraid HI! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 17,108	I doesn't have to me new to be shocking.
	Submit to Quotes

02-09-2006, 12:25 PM	#47
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	I remember there being a big wake-up call in this country after Watergate that finally got the message to everyone that politics were corrupt at the highest levels. It was (and remains) a watershed ... which is why - to this day - every single scandal is named "something-gate." The shock and outrage about political corruption is not about it being new, but about it daring to continue once having been exposed. There's been a much more commonly American demand that corrupt shenanigans STOP, and far more outrage when it's shown they they have not.
	Submit to Quotes

02-09-2006, 12:43 PM	#48
Nephythys Yeah, that's about it- Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In a state of constant crap to get done Posts: 2,688	It's far more amusing to me how easily people believe what they want to believe-even if the truth is something far different. Random political thought-to hell with comparing this to past administrations (ahem- echelon ahem)- what I am looking forward to is the result of the hearings......
	Submit to Quotes

02-09-2006, 12:51 PM	#49
Cadaverous Pallor ohhhh baby Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Parental Bliss Posts: 12,364	My random (yet constant) political thought: I'm not shocked by wiretaps, or lobbying, or corruption, or the abuse of power, or warmongering, or greed, or anything else. I'm not shocked, I'm just saddened. It reminds me that we are not evolving, we are not growing, we are not fixing anything. We're riding the pendulum of human stupidity. I'm willing to bet that the worldwide percentage of those that are truly honest/kind/happy is the same as it ever was. Ever, in the history of humankind. Maybe it's not a political thought after all __________________ The second star to the right shines in the night for you
	Submit to Quotes

02-09-2006, 12:55 PM	#50
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	140 years ago isn't ancient history. That said, what Lincoln or Washington or Jefferson did does not necessarily make what Bush does right or wrong. It does, however, show that history tends to forgive them if the people believe them to have acted in the greater good. The only reason I said what I did was the mocking of the idea that these earlier presidents at least provide precedent (if not necessarily justification) for what it appears Bush is doing. I've not seen much demand that corrupt politics stop. Mostly just that corrupt politics by the other side stop. When the Democrats next hold most of the major offices then 99% of the people will immediately switch sides on just about evrey issue.
	Submit to Quotes