Could you forgive someone who shot you?

[Alex]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

I'm curious then, what you attribute the decisions we make to.

Physics. To what do you attribute the decision of water to flow downhill?

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

Physics. To what do you attribute the decision of water to flow downhill?

Lol, I read psychics first and it took me a minute to figure out. Water isn't conscious in the same way we are though. (And no, I don't believe water to be completely unconscious.) Tonight when I choose between eating steak or salad, in what way does physics come into play? (Also not being snarky, just very interested.)

[Alex]

It is all brain chemistry. Just because the physics that cause you to do one thing or another are incredibly more complex than the physics that causes water to go downhill doesn't mean it isn't all just following a bunch of predetermined rules.

To believe in free will is to believe that something exists outside the fundamental rules of physics, that the connection between cause and effect can be severed. Now, most people are perfectly willing to believe such things, but I've seen no evidence to indicate such. Now, I do believe our brain chemistry is such that we have no choice to perceive free choice and can't help but act accordingly.

[Alex]

This is why free will is pretty much an idea outside of determination. A universe in which it exists and a universe in which it doesn't are essentially indistinguishable. Because you can't tell the difference between someone doing something because they "free willed" it and someone doing it because chemistry required it. Similarly with the opposite.

Just the metaphysical description of universe change. Read the links I posted above, Scott Adams pretty wells sums up where I'm coming from.

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

This is why free will is pretty much an idea outside of determination. A universe in which it exists and a universe in which it doesn't are essentially indistinguishable. Because you can't tell the difference between someone doing something because they "free willed" it and someone doing it because chemistry required it. Similarly with the opposite.

Just the metaphysical description of universe change. Read the links I posted above, Scott Adams pretty wells sums up where I'm coming from.

Ok, I read a great deal of the links (not all, they were quite long). I don't necessarily agree with the conclusion he draws, but it's very very interesting stuff. It reminds me of the movie What the #(*$&% Do We Know. In part of the movie they talk about people being addicted to certain emotions, as each emotion has a certain brain chemical related to it. These people sub-conciously put themselves in the same situations over and over to satisfy their need for that chemical.

If anyone hasn't seen that movie, I highly recommend it. You want find a more entertaining movie about quantum physics.

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

Now, I do believe our brain chemistry is such that we have no choice to perceive free choice and can't help but act accordingly.

But you've proven this statement wrong by not perceiving free choice. (Off to read the links.)

[Alex]

I do perceive free choice. I just don't perceive any justification other than personal perception for it. But even if were the case that my perception is somehow different than anybody elses it wouldnt be an argument that free choice exists. Just that I have different brain chemistry (which I dont).

[Alex]

As an analogy, I also perceive the passage of time as a constant but that is demonstrably not the case. Similarly, while a lack of free will is not provable, just my perception of it does not make it true.

[€uroMeinke]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

As an analogy, I also perceive the passage of time as a constant but that is demonstrably not the case. Similarly, while a lack of free will is not provable, just my perception of it does not make it true.

Of course the cunundrum here - is even these "provable" experiments at some point rely on theory and perception and not necessarily the metaphysical "truth" - what you have is a verisimilitude instead of reality. And so once again one is just left with selectin the explanation that resonates most for them.

Personally, I believe in Free Will, the same way I am an Atheist, I have to accept them to be honest to my own experience of life. Thus, I have a sense of responsibility for my action, I acknowledge consequences for my decissions and wiegh them in my mind when I have to decide something. While my will has limitations, I have experienced times when my actions have chaned or altered the world.

I suppose Alex posits consciousness as an artifact of a process already set in motion - but then I have to wonder why my own consciousness doesn't expand beyodnd the boundries of my physical body. And so, I live my life as if I have free will - beacuse I'm not sure how I would do it otherwise - though maybe I'd be more of a risk taker.