Could you forgive someone who shot you?

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

Now, I do believe our brain chemistry is such that we have no choice to perceive free choice and can't help but act accordingly.

But you've proven this statement wrong by not perceiving free choice. (Off to read the links.)

[Alex]

I do perceive free choice. I just don't perceive any justification other than personal perception for it. But even if were the case that my perception is somehow different than anybody elses it wouldnt be an argument that free choice exists. Just that I have different brain chemistry (which I dont).

[Alex]

As an analogy, I also perceive the passage of time as a constant but that is demonstrably not the case. Similarly, while a lack of free will is not provable, just my perception of it does not make it true.

[Not Afraid]

Some days I think I could forgive, other days I probably would have a hard time doing it. Forgiveness is like anything you have to let go of.....its a daily reprieve type of thing. Some days are easier than others but the reason to hold a grudge will probably always be there, living in some dark corner, for the rest of a person's life and what becomes of that grudge can change on a daily basis.

[bewitched]

Alex, your posts remind me of the theory of parallel universes.

If every outcome of every decision of every moment exists, are we truly experiencing free will? Or is free will only self perception? That would inevitably lead to the question of actuality (reality) vs potentiality (possibilities). I mean, are we actually being deterministic, or are we hurtling along into an infinite number of outcomes/potentialities (that have, and will always exist) each one predetermined by the outcome preceeding it? And if our conscious state is perceiving the actuality which we inhabit, are we exercising free will, or are we "perceiving" free will? So I guess this would break off from your interpretation insofar as it's not so much a chemical determination, but that each action is followed by a predetermined outcome since the initial action split the potential future actions off from the infinite number of other future actions.

In short, are we living an actuality in a sea of possibilities (i.e. we have free will)? Or are we each living a potentiality in a sea of infinite actualities (parallel universes)?

And yes, if you think about this too long, it will totally screw with your brain.



(Damn Brian Greene for being so cute that I had to read his book).

...also wondering if that spewed from my brain correctly...

[€uroMeinke]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

As an analogy, I also perceive the passage of time as a constant but that is demonstrably not the case. Similarly, while a lack of free will is not provable, just my perception of it does not make it true.

Of course the cunundrum here - is even these "provable" experiments at some point rely on theory and perception and not necessarily the metaphysical "truth" - what you have is a verisimilitude instead of reality. And so once again one is just left with selectin the explanation that resonates most for them.

Personally, I believe in Free Will, the same way I am an Atheist, I have to accept them to be honest to my own experience of life. Thus, I have a sense of responsibility for my action, I acknowledge consequences for my decissions and wiegh them in my mind when I have to decide something. While my will has limitations, I have experienced times when my actions have chaned or altered the world.

I suppose Alex posits consciousness as an artifact of a process already set in motion - but then I have to wonder why my own consciousness doesn't expand beyodnd the boundries of my physical body. And so, I live my life as if I have free will - beacuse I'm not sure how I would do it otherwise - though maybe I'd be more of a risk taker.

[Alex]

bewitched, you expressed the implication of infinite universes correctly. If all possible outcomes occur simultaneously then it is hard to see a role for free will.

€, I certainly live my life as if I have free will, I can live it no other way. I just live it with the assumption that in the end my "free will" is just kabuki. However, there in the absence of any theoretical framework that would provide for free will I see no reason to suppose that my perception of the universe is correct. For me this is the same as why I am an atheist.

Both the existence of a god and free will are excluded by our current understanding of the fundamental nature of the universe. So, in the absence of any theoretical gaps that could be explained by [god|free will], or any overwhelming personal experience that indicates the existence of [god|free will] to the exclusion of other explanations I see no reason to presuppose it.

Free will requires that if you take a bunch of atoms and stir them together into a really complex stew somehow something magical results and you end up with the mind/body problem. So far, other than our perception there is no reason to believe this true. For me to believe in free will without a mechanical explanation would essentially force me to abandon my atheism since at that point human consciousness would have acquired the essential attribute of deities: the ability to function outside the fundamental physicial properties of the universe.

To clarify one point: I'm not a Calvinist. I do not believe that the events we experience are predetermined. If you took note of the position of every atom in the universe and then calculated their positions one second later with a big supra-universal computer the result likely would be wrong. But just because the processes that move the universe along are chaotic and contain elements of randomness that produce unpredictable results makes them no less mechanical in nature.

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke

Of course the cunundrum here - is even these "provable" experiments at some point rely on theory and perception and not necessarily the metaphysical "truth" - what you have is a verisimilitude instead of reality. And so once again one is just left with selectin the explanation that resonates most for them.

The other part to think about is that nothing is 100% proof. Evidence is strictly an indictaor of probable outcomes. The only thing is that is absolute about the outcome of an experiment is that one experiment in that one situation.

Science, physics, et. al. is not absolute, for variables abound in this world. And that to me makes life interesting (and sometimes annoying).

------------------

And back to the original question...

One never gets "over" something, you just do your best to move past it. IMO, every experience in your life - great and small, good and bad - and more particularly how you react to it and how you let it affect your lfe (strong believer in free will) shapes who you are. I cannot control what happens to me in my life, but I can control how I react to it and how I allow it to affect me.

My boss is a complete imbecile. I have been allowing his behavior to negatively affect me most of the week and I have been very combative with him. Yesterday, I made the concious decision to NOT get angry. This was much more challenging than the previous days of the week, but far less emotionally draining.

-----------------------------

One last comment: children are much smarter and much more perceptive than society tends to give them credit for.

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

B: Isn't "anything I want" a convenient little delusional phrase? Clearly your will is NOT as free as you think. You are limited to "choosing" only that which "you" will allow yourself to "choose".

Um, unless I am stupid or completely missing something, this statement makes zero sense. If free will is about making personal choices, how is making a personal choice not free will? How is looking at the options, weighing the outcome and making a decision based on the available information limiting?

An instructor in a potentially boring class once made the statement to the class that "you are all sitting here right now because you have nothing more important to be doing" (I always loved instructors who forced us to think and not just teach a rote lesson).

On the surface, you think the guy is nuts. Of course I would have rather still been in bed (if I remember correctly, it was an early morning class) or doing something else. But then I realized that this class was a requirement for me to graduate and I had a higher probability to get a passing grade in this class by sitting in each session and learning as much as possible (I like to the best I can in my endeavors). And I wanted to graduate to help me secure a better career path. And I wanted a better career path to secure a better life for me and my future family. So yes, once I thought about it, being in that class at that moment WAS the most important thing at that moment.

Bastard.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

Um, unless I am stupid or completely missing something, this statement makes zero sense. If free will is about making personal choices, how is making a personal choice not free will? How is looking at the options, weighing the outcome and making a decision based on the available information limiting?

But it also isn't evidence of free will since it also appears to be action based on rational inputs out outputs. But like I said, in my view a universe with free will and without are essentially indistinguishable. Since we live in a perceived spacetime-linear world we can never know whether the alternate actions were actually possible and chosen against.

If I tell you to spin in circles and then stop and you did so, spinning three times before stopping, was spinning three times actually a choice? Could you have chosen to spin four times? There's no way to know, using the structures currently available to us. Could the physics of your brain have been saying "SPIN JUST TWICE" but something in your "animated spirit" said "AWAY SILLY PHYSICS, I'M SPINNING THREE TIMES!!!" Everybody will perceive the latter and most will also believe it to be the truth.