The random political thoughts thread (Part Deux)

[Ghoulish Delight]

Of course, the blurring of the line goes both directions, and that's the objection to the "facts" that btd posted. It's a clear attempt to equate "Hispanics are criminals" to the illegal immigration issue.

Tangentially, the Equal Employment Opportunity Comission lists "Hispanic" as a race.

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

How is that fair?

I hear what you are saying. But we were weak in the past about enforcing the rules. How then can we suddenly get all up in arms about the people who got through? Well, how did they get through? Shoddy border security. You can have a tougher presence now and make it harder for people to get in illegally now. However, it's hard to say 'Okay, now that we're paying attention, everyone who we didn't see get in is a felon.' ???

Personally, I find someone who floated here on a raft to be pretty courageous. That's moxie. We should include those people who would do that to get here. My friend goes to Harvard. Her family floated here from Cuba when she was 6 or so on a freakin' raft. What are we supposed to say? 'Darling, you didn't fill out the right forms. You must take your raft and go back?' My friend is an undergrad at Harvard now. She's going to be a brilliant professor in biochemistry someday. Her family busts their butts to pay her tuition... They are legally American now, but initially they weren't. But they were so unhappy with their country that they came here to make a change and they did. To me, it's patrotic to say, 'If you would risk your life to be here, then you should be here.'

[scaeagles]

Aren't Cubans automatically given legal status because it is assumed they need political assylum for escaping a communist country?

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Aren't Cubans automatically given legal status because it is assumed they need political assylum for escaping a communist country?

I'm not sure. You're the brains around here...

[BarTopDancer]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

My great-granparents waited in line at Ellis Island and followed the proper channels.

As did mine. And my mother went through the proper channels to come here from Canada. My Aunt, who has been here for close to 60 years was facing some immigration issues recently and there was concern she'd have to go back to Canada (she lived her entire adult life here. She has nothing and no one in Canada). Thankfully they were straightened out.

[Alex]

Or perhaps it is just implying that illegal immigrants are criminals. If the numbers were to turn out to be true, would they be racist? Is it not possible to hold the opinion that illegal immigrants are more likely to engage in criminal activities without it being an indictment based on race? I think the poor and marginalized are more likely to be involved in criminal activities regardless of the race category of the poor marginalized people. It just so happens that in illegal immigrants tend to be poor and marginalized and tend to be overwhelmingly Latino.

I don't see that as racist.


Also the EEOC only considers "Hispanic" a race by first excluding from the meaning of "hispanic" all the non-Latino Hispanics. So, yes, by defining "hispanic" to mean "latino" then you do get closer to something like a "race." But since there are millions of Asian Hispanics the EEOC is using a non-standard meaning of the word.

The U.S. Census does not consider Hispanic a race which is why the EEOC has to provide detailed instructions on how they convert an Ethnicity (Hispanic) into a race (Hispanic).

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

I'm not sure. You're the brains around here...

scaeagles is right. Your friend never had illegal status. All Cubans who reach shore are automatically granted political sanctuary. That's what pisses off the Haitians so much.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

I hear what you are saying. But we were weak in the past about enforcing the rules. How then can we suddenly get all up in arms about the people who got through? Well, how did they get through? Shoddy border security. You can have a tougher presence now and make it harder for people to get in illegally now. However, it's hard to say 'Okay, now that we're paying attention, everyone who we didn't see get in is a felon.' ???

Yes, we have been weak on this issue but if I rob someone and don't get caught, haven't I still committed a crime? If they find out about it years later, they surely aren't going to say "Well, we were a little lax when you committed the crime so, even though we now know you committed it, you are free to go". A crime was commited and there should be a penalty, even if the person isn't caught immediately.

Personally, I find someone who floated here on a raft to be pretty courageous. That's moxie. We should include those people who would do that to get here. My friend goes to Harvard. Her family floated here from Cuba when she was 6 or so on a freakin' raft. What are we supposed to say? 'Darling, you didn't fill out the right forms. You must take your raft and go back?' My friend is an undergrad at Harvard now. She's going to be a brilliant professor in biochemistry someday. Her family busts their butts to pay her tuition... They are legally American now, but initially they weren't. But they were so unhappy with their country that they came here to make a change and they did. To me, it's patrotic to say, 'If you would risk your life to be here, then you should be here.'

You know what? I see the courage in these acts as well, and I am well aware that these aren't necessarily bad people who are doing this. I sympathize with them and were I in the same situation, I very well might take the same course of action. I don't fault them, I fault the mexican government and I fault ours for letting this situation get so out of hand. Still, replace the kind family you mention above with a rapist and tell me it's no big deal that they didn't go through the proper channels (which might have prevented it). Most people that come into this country are good, hard working people. Some are absolutely not though and we have no way of determining whether a person who snuck across the border wants to work, or detonate a dirty bomb at Disneyland. The legal process can determine if someone that wants to move here has a prior record and they can be prevented. Illegally crossing the border means that we have no idea what your background is. That is a major problem.

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

scaeagles is right. Your friend never had illegal status. All Cubans who reach shore are automatically granted political sanctuary. That's what pisses off the Haitians so much.

Well that's cool!
I'm wondering why there would be such a distinction in the rules for people who come here from Cuba vs Mexico (and Haiti for that matter). I mean, we think Communism is wrong but we also think the way Mexico is run is wrong. We draw the line because one is a Communist country? (I'm being more inquisitive and not snarky here... in this post at least.)

[Alex]

Essentially is a hangover from the Cold War. Nobody really supports it (or the embargo of Cuba) any longer but it can't be changed without appearing soft on Communism.

It is easy to oppose such measures against new countries, harder to actually stand up and say they should be abolished against existing dictators.

Vietnamese, Cambodians, and Laotians also had a period where, if they could get here, they were pretty much summarily granted asylum. East Europeans and Russians who managed to defect were also summarily granted asylum. The hook on which these asylum claims is made is that merely the act of trying to leave your home country is grounds for execution if you're returned.

If Vicente Fox started firing squads for any nationals returned by the United States then things might change.