The random political thoughts thread (Part Deux)

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

Yes, we have been weak on this issue but if I rob someone and don't get caught, haven't I still committed a crime?
...
A crime was commited and there should be a penalty, even if the person isn't caught immediately.

Yes, but outside of being here illegally, don't these people also do us a lot of good? ie. These people are working the fields in Salinas. I don't see any kids right out of high school picking artichokes...
I don't put illegal aliens and thieves and rapists in the same boat. I don't think it's a black and white issue like that. I think some good comes from them being here.

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

Still, replace the kind family you mention above with a rapist and tell me it's no big deal that they didn't go through the proper channels (which might have prevented it). Most people that come into this country are good, hard working people. Some are absolutely not though and we have no way of determining whether a person who snuck across the border wants to work, or detonate a dirty bomb at Disneyland. The legal process can determine if someone that wants to move here has a prior record and they can be prevented. Illegally crossing the border means that we have no idea what your background is. That is a major problem.

I don't see what you're saying here. Someone who comes here legally could rape someone. Someone who was born here could do the same. The legal processes fail us all the time. Your statement, MBC, illustrates to me that the fear tactics that have been used about this issue are working.

The real issue at hand is that Americans are in this weird space right now where people are rising up in fear of people who are different. Post 9/11, America is a tough place to be if you're Muslim, Jewish, black, Latino, gay... Everything is a threat to our country or a threat to our moral fiber. Well, are those things really a threat to us? ie. People have been coming over illegally for many many decades now. Have we crumbled? People need to have more faith in their country's ability to survive than that. If every person who comes here illegally has the potential to topple us, then something's wrong with us (the U.S.).

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

If Vicente Fox started firing squads for any nationals returned by the United States then things might change.

Well, let's hope he doesn't...


I just thought of another thing to add to my post above. During WWII, we put Japanese Americans into camps. Did that make us any safer? No. Was it a knee jerk reaction to Pearl Harbor? Yes. Did people feel safer after we did that? Probably. Was it right of us to do? Absolutely not.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

Yes, but outside of being here illegally, don't these people also do us a lot of good?

I guess it depends on your definition of good.

Here is something I found and hate to admit it's from FAIR:

"Between 40 and 50 percent of wage-loss among low-skilled Americans is due
to the in-migration of low-skilled workers. Many American workers lose their
jobs through unfair competition. An estimated 1,880,000 American workers are
displaced from their jobs every year by immigration and the cost for
providing welfare and assistance to these Americans is over $15 billion a
year - FAIR research.

Immigration is a net drain on the economy; corporate interests reap the
benefits of cheap labor, while taxpayers pay the infrastructural cost. FAIR
research shows "the net annual cost of illegal immigration has been estimated
at between $67 and $87 billion a year. Even studies claiming some modest
overall gain for the economy from immigration ($1 to $10 billion a year) have
found that it is outweighed by the fiscal cost ($15 to $20 billion a year)
to native taxpayers."

In AZ Cesar Chavez is big. He was the man who organized farm labor. He was adamantly opposed to illegal immigration because illegals flooded the work market and drove wages down. He reported anyone of questionable status he found to INS.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

I don't see what you're saying here. Someone who comes here legally could rape someone. Someone who was born here could do the same. The legal processes fail us all the time. Your statement, MBC, illustrates to me that the fear tactics that have been used about this issue are working.

Sure, someone who comes here legally could rape someone. If they have no prior record, we would have no way of knowing that. But some (maybe only a few) of the people who sneak over here DO have a previous history of crime that might raise a red flag. Without them going through the proper channels, we have absolutely no way of knowing this.

If it is ok for a company in the US to require a background check before someone can work for them, it should also be ok to require a background check before we allow someone to become a citizen. That's not fear. That is common sense.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

Yes, but outside of being here illegally, don't these people also do us a lot of good? ie. These people are working the fields in Salinas. I don't see any kids right out of high school picking artichokes...

But if they weren't here you would. Or you'd see machines picking the artichokes. If there wasn't a large supply of people willing to work under the table for very low wages either the farmers would pay more to attract workers (and we'd pay more for artichokes) or the farmers would find ways to pick the artichokes with the labor available (through efficiencies and automation).

So, instead of "these people are working the jobs that Americans don't want" maybe it is "these people are supressing wages to the point that they become jobs Americans don't want." Is it really amazing that in parts of the country without a large number of illegal immigrant these jobs that "no American wants" still get done. Why is it mildly shocking to eat in a restaurant in Minnesota and see the tables bussed by white people?

The issue of the people who have been in this country illegally for a long time is the part that really screws up this debate. I think most people agree that strong border enforcement is a reasonable governmental function. What do we do with the people already here? Is it fair to deport a 22 year old who came to the country with her parents when she was 3 and has known no other home? No, not really. But is it fair to give her citizenship and jump her ahead of the millions of people trying to do it through proper channels? No, not really.

I don't really have a problem with amnesty of those already here. Not as a general concept. The problem is that it creates an incentive for people to come here illegally in increasing numbers. All they have to do is get here and hide long enough and eventually they'll be made legal. It happened in the aftermath of the last amnesty and reports are that illegal crossings are up since the recent talk of new amnesty has begun. There isn't an easy answer and no matter what policy is enacted it is going to be unfair to a large number of people.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

Well, let's hope he doesn't...


During WWII, we put Japanese Americans into camps. Did that make us any safer? No. Was it a knee jerk reaction to Pearl Harbor? Yes. Did people feel safer after we did that? Probably. Was it right of us to do? Absolutely not.

The reason why it was wrong to do was because these people had not broken any laws and were here legally. During the war, would it have been wise to let a million Japanese cross our border without any checking whatsoever? Would we have been wrong not to do so?

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I guess it depends on your definition of good.

I lived in Monterey, CA for 3 years or so. My commute took me through a artichoke field every day. Anytime there was something to harvest, there were illegal immigrants out there picking these crops. I'm thinking that these guys did the markets some good by picking these crops. No one else would do it. I think they're doing a good thing.

(Tangent: In fact, I spoke with a school teacher in Carmel about this. I told her that if I were running her school, I'd make it a requirement for the kids to do one day of labor in one of these fields to see how hard it actually is. She thought it was a good idea.)

Yes, they take the job of someone American and legal who could do it. But I find it hard to believe that there are stacks of applications that were overlooked at the foreman's desk. If these guys didn't pick these crops, the business would take itself to South America and veggies would have to be shipped over here. I think that's worse for our country.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

I just thought of another thing to add to my post above. During WWII, we put Japanese Americans into camps. Did that make us any safer? No. Was it a knee jerk reaction to Pearl Harbor? Yes. Did people feel safer after we did that? Probably. Was it right of us to do? Absolutely not.

Can you continue on this thought to help explain its relevance to the illegal immigration debate? Not being snarky, just not getting what you mean.

I think it would have been completely appropriate to view illegal Japanese immigration as a threat during WWII. I don't see anybody advocating any kind of poor treatment for legal immigrants in the current debate.

[BarTopDancer]

I haven't really spoken a lot about this topic here. I'm going to divulge a bit further in to my thoughts on this.

If someone snuck across the border, got a job (whatever job it is as long as it's legal), is supporting him/herself, and their family (if they have one) and not sucking the life out of our social programs (welfare, food stamps, wic) then I don't have a huge problem with them being here. Yes, they are illegal, yes, they should have gone through the proper channels, but at this stage in the situation they are making a living, support themselves, being productive and probably doing work that no one who is here legally would want to do anyways. They may not be paying taxes but they are making an effort to truly make a better life for themselves.

If someone snuck across the border, is not making any effort to support him/herself, and their family (if they have one) and has signed up for our social programs (welfare, food stamps, wic) then they need to leave. They are not contributing to our tax dollars and are taking advantage of our programs.

These opnions go for anyone who is here illegally. Our social programs are strained enough without people who are here illegally taking advantage of them.

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

But some (maybe only a few) of the people who sneak over here DO have a previous history of crime that might raise a red flag. Without them going through the proper channels, we have absolutely no way of knowing this.

Am I really going to trust border security to properly screen someone when they can't even keep people out?

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

If it is ok for a company in the US to require a background check before someone can work for them, it should also be ok to require a background check before we allow someone to become a citizen. That's not fear. That is common sense.

The sudden emphasis on this now is fear. Common sense should have been used for decades now and wasn't.