The random political thoughts thread (Part Deux)

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

But if they weren't here you would.

Not necessarily. These businesses would just do what Wal*Mart is doing. Go to where they can find cheap labor.

I don't really have a problem with amnesty of those already here. Not as a general concept.

I think if it is made clear that this is amnesty for people here already, but after a certain time they could be held as felons would be ideal. However, how do you prove who got here when? That's the tough part.. I think it won't be seen as an incentive if the rules are strictly enforced after that.

[Alex]

Maybe you wouldn't see wage increases or automation and the industry would move elsewhere. But so? I don't see how low-wage unprotected workers is worth the tradeoff for cheaper local artichokes.

The point you raise about amnesty is one that a lot of people raise. And that is why they want to see an period of strong enforcement before amnesty is discussed. When Reagan did his big amnesty back in the '80s the promise was the it would mark a new age of strict border enforcement. Obviously that didn't happen and a lot of people came in (post amnesty illegal immigration is much higher than pre-amnesty) hoping for another amnesty at some point down the road. That amnesty was also supposed to be one-time thing for the ones already here.

Obviously, since we're discussing it again, "one time thing" is hard to enforce on the future.

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

I don't see how low-wage unprotected workers is worth the tradeoff for cheaper local artichokes.

Believe it or not, I didn't see cheap artichokes in Monterey. They're the same price here. The only way to get cheap prices is to go to a veggie stand somewhere by Moss Landing or something. The Ralph's artichokes were just as expensive as here.

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

Obviously, since we're discussing it again, "one time thing" is hard to enforce on the future.

I think the problem is when to start it and how. I think giving people a deadline to become citizens or else is an idea, but it seems brutal. I mean, deporting people by the truckloads is scary to me.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

I think giving people a deadline to become citizens or else is an idea, but it seems brutal. I mean, deporting people by the truckloads is scary to me.

But, isn't the idea that many health care facilities are closing because they are completely overwhelmed by illegal immigrants also scary? What about the strains on the educational system when schools are so strained by the influx of illegals that they can't provide an education to those who have a legal right to be there? Ask any teacher in southern Ca. if illegals are hurting their ability to teach and you will get a resounding yes. These teachers are on the front line and I believe what the ones I know have told me.

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

But, isn't the idea that many health care facilities are closing because they are completely overwhelmed by illegal immigrants also scary?

These facilities should be further funded by our government. It's the government's fault that they are here. The concern for these people should be there now, because the concern wasn't there while they were crossing.

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

What about the strains on the educational system when schools are so strained by the influx of illegals that they can't provide an education to those who have a legal right to be there? Ask any teacher in southern Ca. if illegals are hurting their ability to teach and you will get a resounding yes. These teachers are on the front line and I believe what the ones I know have told me.

Health care, poor education, our country's security... are the illegal aliens to blame for all of these things? Maybe in part, but not totally. Our health care system sucks, our schools suck, if illegal aliens are our explanation for all of these things then that explanation is a cop out.

Our government and our leaders didn't want to focus on affordable health care, they didn't want to focus on education, they didn't want to spend the money on border control and security... Now it's biting them in the butt. They don't pay attention to things until it's too late. Now they have a huge problem to fix. So what's the answer? I don't know. All I know is that I can very easily put myself in an illegal alien's shoes. If I were an illegal alien, I would want someone like a Gemini Cricket to have a little bit of sympathy for my plight.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

Health care, poor education, our country's security... are the illegal aliens to blame for all of these things? Maybe in part, but not totally. Our health care system sucks, our schools suck, if illegal aliens are our explanation for all of these things then that explanation is a cop out.

I never said they were the sole explanation. I know you know me better than that. Still, the burden that illegal immigration causes is real and it increases daily. It cannot be overlooked.

All I know is that I can very easily put myself in an illegal alien's shoes. If I were an illegal alien, I would want someone like a Gemini Cricket to have a little bit of sympathy for my plight.

Which implies that I don't have sympathy. To be fair, I don't think you are really suggesting that but the fact is, I can very easily put myself in their shoes. Like I've said repeatedly, I don't blame them. I completely understand why they do what they do and I feel very sorry that they are in the position they are in due the fact that they live in an amazingly corrupt country that frankly doesn't give a damn about them.

But the United States cannot afford to fix every problem that is created by another country. The best we can do is allow a process for those who want to come into our country legally have a way to do so. We have always done this and I suspect, always will. The problem is that our government has been doing what is best for the corporations and not what is best for its citizenry. Both political parties are beholden to the corporations and that is why this problem is as bad as it is.

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

Which implies that I don't have sympathy. To be fair, I don't think you are really suggesting that but the fact is, I can very easily put myself in their shoes.

I'd like to clarify that I didn't mean you. At all.

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

But, isn't the idea that many health care facilities are closing because they are completely overwhelmed by illegal immigrants also scary?

That's a myth.

I was just recently doing some research on this as it affects LA County, but I don't have the data here at work. I'll post the actual numbers (and their sources) tonight when I get home, but here is what I remember of the top of my head:

About 2 million uninsured persons in LA County (out of a population of 10 million).

There are aproximately 800,000 illegal aliens in LA County, of these, about 50,000 are on Medi-Cal (receiving emergancy room and pregnancy related services only).

So, out of the 2 million uninsured in LA county, only about 750,000 - or 37.5% - are illegal. And that is assuming that none of those 750,000 have some other type of coverage.

So, are we going to persecute the 1.25 million legal aliens and citizens who are uninsured and clogging-up the health care system, as well?

[Alex]

Um, how does what you said contradict what what you quoted?

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

Um, how does what you said contradict what what you quoted?

That illegals aren't the boggeyman. You can't blame all of society's woes in illegals. You might as well claim that the high gas prices are the fault of the illegals. Or earthquakes, or sunspots.