The random political thoughts thread (Part Deux)

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

I don't see how low-wage unprotected workers is worth the tradeoff for cheaper local artichokes.

Believe it or not, I didn't see cheap artichokes in Monterey. They're the same price here. The only way to get cheap prices is to go to a veggie stand somewhere by Moss Landing or something. The Ralph's artichokes were just as expensive as here.

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

Obviously, since we're discussing it again, "one time thing" is hard to enforce on the future.

I think the problem is when to start it and how. I think giving people a deadline to become citizens or else is an idea, but it seems brutal. I mean, deporting people by the truckloads is scary to me.

[Alex]

I would think it would hold up pretty well. "Illegal Immigration" is an ongoing criminal act. It isn't something you did once in the past and that's it. I would think this also precludes statute of limitation type arguments as well.

[Scrooge McSam]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

I'll be happy to talk about that too, but this has been about what to do with the people already here and the people crossing over.

No, the discussion is good and I don't want to derail it.

Just call it a pet peeve of mine. So many times I see the immigrants roundly criticized and the lawlessness of the employers ignored.

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

Part of what needs to be fixed is more funding and more agents. The system is obviously completely overwhelmed at the moment and has been for some time. But that isn't really the issue here. The issue is, should we just allow anyone into this country with no safeguards whatsoever? Why even have a legal process if there is no penalty whatsoever for sidestepping that process?

We haven't had huge penalties in the past. It's a little late to start it now. Especially when people have been here for ages. I mean, some people are here and don't know of any other place that is home. Kids that come here when they're small, grow up here and are illegal. What are you supposed to do, kick out someone to Mexico when all they know about life is in Southern California? That doesn't seem fair either.

Saying that you want this to happen because of accountability is different from saying you want this to happen because one of these people might be a terrorist.

The only "sudden" part of this is that politicians are now seeing that people are pissed off about this and the media sees a story that people are interested in.

But why is there a focus on it? Fear.

"nobody is willing to do this work at the wage being offerred to illegal immigrants."

I see your point on this.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

I think giving people a deadline to become citizens or else is an idea, but it seems brutal. I mean, deporting people by the truckloads is scary to me.

But, isn't the idea that many health care facilities are closing because they are completely overwhelmed by illegal immigrants also scary? What about the strains on the educational system when schools are so strained by the influx of illegals that they can't provide an education to those who have a legal right to be there? Ask any teacher in southern Ca. if illegals are hurting their ability to teach and you will get a resounding yes. These teachers are on the front line and I believe what the ones I know have told me.

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

I would think it would hold up pretty well. "Illegal Immigration" is an ongoing criminal act. It isn't something you did once in the past and that's it. I would think this also precludes statute of limitation type arguments as well.

It's a criminal act that nobody focused on for awhile. Now that we realize it's a problem and it's a little too late.

But again, I don't see our nation crumbling because of the illegal immigration problem. And I just drove across country, there's a lot of land for these people so saying there isn't room isn't correct either.

I think corporations should pay people more to pick crops. They should give them the benefits and retirement opportunities that they deserve. They should be accountable for hiring illegal aliens. But what happens to these illegal workers once the work is gone for them? They go nowhere.

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

But, isn't the idea that many health care facilities are closing because they are completely overwhelmed by illegal immigrants also scary?

These facilities should be further funded by our government. It's the government's fault that they are here. The concern for these people should be there now, because the concern wasn't there while they were crossing.

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

What about the strains on the educational system when schools are so strained by the influx of illegals that they can't provide an education to those who have a legal right to be there? Ask any teacher in southern Ca. if illegals are hurting their ability to teach and you will get a resounding yes. These teachers are on the front line and I believe what the ones I know have told me.

Health care, poor education, our country's security... are the illegal aliens to blame for all of these things? Maybe in part, but not totally. Our health care system sucks, our schools suck, if illegal aliens are our explanation for all of these things then that explanation is a cop out.

Our government and our leaders didn't want to focus on affordable health care, they didn't want to focus on education, they didn't want to spend the money on border control and security... Now it's biting them in the butt. They don't pay attention to things until it's too late. Now they have a huge problem to fix. So what's the answer? I don't know. All I know is that I can very easily put myself in an illegal alien's shoes. If I were an illegal alien, I would want someone like a Gemini Cricket to have a little bit of sympathy for my plight.

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

I wonder, how would turning illegal immigration into a felony hold up to ex post facto scrutiny?

I don't know what ex post facto scrutiny is, but when I find out, I'll respond.

[Alex]

I don't think illegal immigrants will topple the United States. But that doesn't mean I don't think it is an issue to be addressed. A lot of people have been focusing on it for a very long time, I don't see their efforts as invalid just because it took a decade to get press attention.

If I use a flimsy lock on my garage and some teenager moves in there, at what point am I obligated to call him son?

And I too have driven across the United States many times. I suppose we could ship all of the illegal immigrants to Wyoming but what exactly would they do there? There's a reason they mostly end up in our big cities. Saying that they don't cause a crowding problem in LA because there is a lot of room in North Dakota isn't addressing the issue.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

But what happens to these illegal workers once the work is gone for them? They go nowhere.

This is a situation that I am faced with regularly. I own my own business and over the last couple of years have seen many of my clients turn to China to get the work done that I used to do. I have contemplated closing down many times because the work that was once plentiful is now practically non-existant. And if that happens, I am on my own. It is my responsibility to come up with a back-up plan and if I don't, I'm screwed. Life isn't always fair.

I feel very bad for these poor people but if by fixing the system, they have to find another way to support themselves, then that is what they have to do. There are no easy solutions to any of this. All we can do is try to determine what is best for our country. And no matter how I try to wrap my brain around it, allowing 12 million people to overwhelm our social services, with no repercussions whatsoever for breaking the law is not the solution.