Miscellaneous Movie Musings - Page 41

Gemini Cricket · 06-09-2006, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Nothing happens for 90% of the movie, everything leads up to a single anticlimactic battle...a battle, mind you, where we learn that aparantly mutants are unable to use their mutant powers in a large fight as scores of mutants charged at Wolverine, aparantly planning to get in a fist fight with him only to get skewered. Lame.

And, "I'm the Juggernaut, bitch!"???? 'nuff said.

Spoiler:

Snowflake · 06-09-2006, 10:21 AM

Cars for me on Sunday and looking forward to it.

scaeagles · 06-09-2006, 10:34 AM

Alex gave Cars 9/10. I read his review this morning.

He points out that the theming of the movie is common. This made me think....

I recall I once took a theatre course in college where we discussed George Polti and his 36 plots. For those unfamiliar with Polti (not that I am an expert in the least), he was a Frenchman who in the 19th century (18th? Can't recall) hypothesized that there are really only 36 plots (and lists them) or minor variations thereof for a dramatic situation. Therefore, there is nothing new that can be done, so the beauty of dramatic work is the way in which the story is told.

Are we at an end to creativity in dramatic situations? I wonder. I recall reading about how the US Patent office was going to be closed in the late 1800s/early 1900s because there was "nothing new to invent". Ridiculous, certainly, but Polti's work seems to have some credibility.

Gemini Cricket · 06-09-2006, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Are we at an end to creativity in dramatic situations?

I don't know much about Polti, but I'm interested now after reading what you said.

But I do think there is a huge lack of creativity in Hollywood. Absolutely. This is what it seems like to me: the people in charge are out of touch with what their audiences want to see and they are greenlighting films to untalented cronies. If they actually gave someone new and actual creative people a chance, there would be more to see out there. Until then, they'll feed us 'Charlie's Angels 3' and we're supposed to sit and like it. Yeah, right.

Ghoulish Delight · 06-09-2006, 10:57 AM

The strength of Cars, according to the review I heard this morning, is the same strength that every other Pixar project has had...characters. I happen to agree with Polti. As plots go, we're limited (I don't know that I'd quantize it down to exactly 36 as he did, but I do believe there's a finite space of plots that's relatively small). Quality storytelling can't be focused on the plots, it's gotta focused on the characters. Creativity comes from the exponentially large space that is the combination of plot and characters. A story shouldn't tell what happened. A story should tell what the characters do when stuff happens.

scaeagles · 06-09-2006, 11:05 AM

I have always tended to agree with him as well. This is why I've never understood why critics are overly critical (not to say Alex was in his review in the least. Not at all. He just go me thinking.) of "the same old story" getting told. Well, there just aren't that many different stories to tell, so reviewers, who watch lots of movies by default, are of course going to tire of them.

Not Afraid · 06-09-2006, 11:13 AM

It's not about the story so much as it is about the telling. There are a great many "classic" stories that have been told and retold many times over with varying results. I have always loved a good retelling of a story, but nothing can be worse than a bad retelling of a good story.

Gemini Cricket · 06-09-2006, 11:14 AM

The 36 Situations

1. Supplication
a Persecutor; a Supplicant; a Power in authority, whose decision is doubtful.

2. Deliverance
an Unfortunate; a Threatener; a Rescuer

3. Crime pursued by vengeance
an Avenger; a Criminal

4. Vengeance taken for kin upon kin
an Avenging Kinsman; Guilty Kinsman; remembrance of the Victim, a relative of both

5. Pursuit
Punishment; a Fugitive

6. Disaster
a Vanquished Power; a Victorious Enemy or a Messenger

7. Falling prey to cruelty/misfortune
an Unfortunate; a Master or a Misfortune

8. Revolt
a Tyrant; a Conspirator

9. Daring enterprise
a Bold Leader; an Object; an Adversary

10. Abduction
an Abductor; the Abducted; a Guardian

11. The enigma
an Interrogator; a Seeker; a Problem

12. Obtaining
(a Solicitor & an Adversary who is refusing) or (an Arbitrator & Opposing Parties)

13. Enmity of kin
a Malevolent Kinsman; a Hatred or a reciprocally-hating Kinsman

14. Rivalry of kin
the Preferred Kinsman; the Rejected Kinsman; the Object of Rivalry

15. Murderous adultery
two Adulterers; a Betrayed Spouse

16. Madness
a Madman; a Victim

17.Fatal imprudence
the Imprudent; a Victim or an Object Lost

18. Involuntary crimes of love
a Lover; a Beloved; a Revealer

19. Slaying of kin unrecognized
the Slayer; an Unrecognized Victim

20. Self-sacrifice for an ideal
a Hero; an Ideal; a Creditor or a Person/Thing sacrificed

21. Self-sacrifice for kin
a Hero; a Kinsman; a Creditor or a Person/Thing sacrificed

22. All sacrificed for passion
a Lover; an Object of fatal Passion; the Person/Thing sacrificed

23. Necessity of sacrificing loved ones
a Hero; a Beloved Victim; the Necessity for the Sacrifice

24. Rivalry of superior v. inferior
a Superior Rival; an Inferior Rival; the Object of Rivalry

25. Adultery
two Adulterers; a Deceived Spouse

26. Crimes of love
a Lover; the Beloved

27. Discovery of the dishonour of a loved one
a Discoverer; the Guilty One

28. Obstacles to love
two Lovers; an Obstacle

29. An enemy loved
a Lover; the Beloved Enemy; the Hater

30.Ambition
an Ambitious Person; a Thing Coveted; an Adversary

31. Conflict with a god
a Mortal; an Immortal

32. Mistaken jealousy
a Jealous One; an Object of whose Possession He is Jealous; a Supposed 33. Accomplice; a Cause or an Author of the Mistake

33.Erroneous judgement
a Mistaken One; a Victim of the Mistake; a Cause or Author of the Mistake; the Guilty One

34.Remorse
a Culprit; a Victim or the Sin; an Interrogator

35. Recovery of a lost one
a Seeker; the One Found

36. Loss of loved ones
a Kinsman Slain; a Kinsman Spectator; an Executioner

--------------------------

Boy this is really interesting to me. I think I should start another thread where we name of some films for each. Cool stuff, Leo.

Alex · 06-09-2006, 11:23 AM

I think there are many, many plots. Probably an infinite amount. What there is in limited quantity is motivation that we find interesting. But even if there are only 36 plots there is still a lot of leeway in presenting those plots in interesting ways.

What I think gets me is if you are going to cover very well-trod territory with a story, you should provide some reason for it to be worth revisiting since the last time someone did. I don't really have a problem with a remake of Psycho (it could be good and if it isn't oh well) but I do have a problem with a shot-for-shot remake as it seems to have no point except to say that a modern audience can't properly appreciate it unless you replace Janet Leigh with Anne Heche and Anthony Perkins with Vince Vaughn (remember when he did dramatic work too?).

Essentially I'm looking for some originality in a movie. If it isn't in plot, hopefully it is in character, or in mood, or in some interesting interpretation of the standard plot, or in the style of filmmaking. Plot is huge, so if you go with a very worn chestnut then you are at a bit of a disadvantage in finding room for creative expansion but it isn't impossible. As I said in the review, Cars is almost exactly, plot point for plot point, the same story as Doc Hollywood. And yet it is much better because it creates more interesting characters. But if it hadn't done that or found some other area for growth then simply being a knock-off of a B movie would have been a problem.

Alex · 06-09-2006, 11:25 AM

The problem with those 36 plots is that they are abstracted to such a high level that it doesn't really reveal much. To me it is kind of like saying there are only 26 letters in the alphabet so you can't easily write something original.

06-09-2006, 10:21 AM	#402
Snowflake lost in the fog Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: San Francisco Posts: 7,831	Cars for me on Sunday and looking forward to it. __________________ Be yourself; everyone else is already taken. - Oscar Wilde
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06-09-2006, 10:34 AM	#403
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	Alex gave Cars 9/10. I read his review this morning. He points out that the theming of the movie is common. This made me think.... I recall I once took a theatre course in college where we discussed George Polti and his 36 plots. For those unfamiliar with Polti (not that I am an expert in the least), he was a Frenchman who in the 19th century (18th? Can't recall) hypothesized that there are really only 36 plots (and lists them) or minor variations thereof for a dramatic situation. Therefore, there is nothing new that can be done, so the beauty of dramatic work is the way in which the story is told. Are we at an end to creativity in dramatic situations? I wonder. I recall reading about how the US Patent office was going to be closed in the late 1800s/early 1900s because there was "nothing new to invent". Ridiculous, certainly, but Polti's work seems to have some credibility.
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06-09-2006, 10:57 AM	#405
Ghoulish Delight I Floop the Pig Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Alternative Swankstyle Posts: 19,348	The strength of Cars, according to the review I heard this morning, is the same strength that every other Pixar project has had...characters. I happen to agree with Polti. As plots go, we're limited (I don't know that I'd quantize it down to exactly 36 as he did, but I do believe there's a finite space of plots that's relatively small). Quality storytelling can't be focused on the plots, it's gotta focused on the characters. Creativity comes from the exponentially large space that is the combination of plot and characters. A story shouldn't tell what happened. A story should tell what the characters do when stuff happens. __________________ 'He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.' -TJ
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06-09-2006, 11:05 AM	#406
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	I have always tended to agree with him as well. This is why I've never understood why critics are overly critical (not to say Alex was in his review in the least. Not at all. He just go me thinking.) of "the same old story" getting told. Well, there just aren't that many different stories to tell, so reviewers, who watch lots of movies by default, are of course going to tire of them. Last edited by scaeagles : 06-09-2006 at 11:13 AM.
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06-09-2006, 11:13 AM	#407
Not Afraid HI! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 17,108	It's not about the story so much as it is about the telling. There are a great many "classic" stories that have been told and retold many times over with varying results. I have always loved a good retelling of a story, but nothing can be worse than a bad retelling of a good story.
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06-09-2006, 11:14 AM	#408
Gemini Cricket ... Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 13,244	The 36 Situations 1. Supplication a Persecutor; a Supplicant; a Power in authority, whose decision is doubtful. 2. Deliverance an Unfortunate; a Threatener; a Rescuer 3. Crime pursued by vengeance an Avenger; a Criminal 4. Vengeance taken for kin upon kin an Avenging Kinsman; Guilty Kinsman; remembrance of the Victim, a relative of both 5. Pursuit Punishment; a Fugitive 6. Disaster a Vanquished Power; a Victorious Enemy or a Messenger 7. Falling prey to cruelty/misfortune an Unfortunate; a Master or a Misfortune 8. Revolt a Tyrant; a Conspirator 9. Daring enterprise a Bold Leader; an Object; an Adversary 10. Abduction an Abductor; the Abducted; a Guardian 11. The enigma an Interrogator; a Seeker; a Problem 12. Obtaining (a Solicitor & an Adversary who is refusing) or (an Arbitrator & Opposing Parties) 13. Enmity of kin a Malevolent Kinsman; a Hatred or a reciprocally-hating Kinsman 14. Rivalry of kin the Preferred Kinsman; the Rejected Kinsman; the Object of Rivalry 15. Murderous adultery two Adulterers; a Betrayed Spouse 16. Madness a Madman; a Victim 17.Fatal imprudence the Imprudent; a Victim or an Object Lost 18. Involuntary crimes of love a Lover; a Beloved; a Revealer 19. Slaying of kin unrecognized the Slayer; an Unrecognized Victim 20. Self-sacrifice for an ideal a Hero; an Ideal; a Creditor or a Person/Thing sacrificed 21. Self-sacrifice for kin a Hero; a Kinsman; a Creditor or a Person/Thing sacrificed 22. All sacrificed for passion a Lover; an Object of fatal Passion; the Person/Thing sacrificed 23. Necessity of sacrificing loved ones a Hero; a Beloved Victim; the Necessity for the Sacrifice 24. Rivalry of superior v. inferior a Superior Rival; an Inferior Rival; the Object of Rivalry 25. Adultery two Adulterers; a Deceived Spouse 26. Crimes of love a Lover; the Beloved 27. Discovery of the dishonour of a loved one a Discoverer; the Guilty One 28. Obstacles to love two Lovers; an Obstacle 29. An enemy loved a Lover; the Beloved Enemy; the Hater 30.Ambition an Ambitious Person; a Thing Coveted; an Adversary 31. Conflict with a god a Mortal; an Immortal 32. Mistaken jealousy a Jealous One; an Object of whose Possession He is Jealous; a Supposed 33. Accomplice; a Cause or an Author of the Mistake 33.Erroneous judgement a Mistaken One; a Victim of the Mistake; a Cause or Author of the Mistake; the Guilty One 34.Remorse a Culprit; a Victim or the Sin; an Interrogator 35. Recovery of a lost one a Seeker; the One Found 36. Loss of loved ones a Kinsman Slain; a Kinsman Spectator; an Executioner -------------------------- Boy this is really interesting to me. I think I should start another thread where we name of some films for each. Cool stuff, Leo.
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06-09-2006, 11:23 AM	#409
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	I think there are many, many plots. Probably an infinite amount. What there is in limited quantity is motivation that we find interesting. But even if there are only 36 plots there is still a lot of leeway in presenting those plots in interesting ways. What I think gets me is if you are going to cover very well-trod territory with a story, you should provide some reason for it to be worth revisiting since the last time someone did. I don't really have a problem with a remake of Psycho (it could be good and if it isn't oh well) but I do have a problem with a shot-for-shot remake as it seems to have no point except to say that a modern audience can't properly appreciate it unless you replace Janet Leigh with Anne Heche and Anthony Perkins with Vince Vaughn (remember when he did dramatic work too?). Essentially I'm looking for some originality in a movie. If it isn't in plot, hopefully it is in character, or in mood, or in some interesting interpretation of the standard plot, or in the style of filmmaking. Plot is huge, so if you go with a very worn chestnut then you are at a bit of a disadvantage in finding room for creative expansion but it isn't impossible. As I said in the review, Cars is almost exactly, plot point for plot point, the same story as Doc Hollywood. And yet it is much better because it creates more interesting characters. But if it hadn't done that or found some other area for growth then simply being a knock-off of a B movie would have been a problem.
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06-09-2006, 11:25 AM	#410
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	The problem with those 36 plots is that they are abstracted to such a high level that it doesn't really reveal much. To me it is kind of like saying there are only 26 letters in the alphabet so you can't easily write something original.
	Submit to Quotes