Major Terrorist Threat in UK-US discovered

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

That isn't how it was sold.

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It is completely how it was sold. To get rid of a madman with WMD.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

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It is completely how it was sold. To get rid of a madman with WMD.

You are half-correct. WMD's and bringing democracy to Iraq is how it was sold. In other words, it was sold with a fear of terrorism from the evil conniving Saddam and as a way to establish the first real democracy in the middle east, thereby halting the spread of terrorism. Those are the reasons that I remember.

Unfortunately, 6 years later, we still have found no WMD's and we still haven't brought democracy to Iraq. Meanwhile, terrorism, the thing that made all of this worth it, is on the rise. Plots are still being hatched against the US. The borders aren't secure. Hell, a hurricane caught us with our pants down around our ankles as far as disaster management. Oh, and the guy that masterminded that attack on 9/11 that changed everything? We still haven't a clue where he is.

And the problem is, that the minute we started this gun ho war against terrorism, all we have to show for it is more terrorists, a country on the verge of a civil war, and continued terrorist plots against us. There are plenty of things that we can do to reduce incidents of terrorism without giving up our civil liberties and our hair products. As long as we are engaged in a losing battle with Iraq though, I don't see it happening any time soon.

[NirvanaMan]

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

As long as we are engaged in a losing battle with Iraq though, I don't see it happening any time soon.

Not that I want to get into a huge debate, but this is simply too broad a statement to make without qualifiers. Is that the picture the media is painting? Abso-fukin-lutely. Do we trust the mass-media? Uhh, we shouldn't. Their accounts of the story, with death toll scoreboard that light up more than broadway on gay-night, are hardly objective honest views of the reality. I like to temper it with accounts from actual soldiers living and breathing life over there, as well as accounts from actual Iraqi's.

I'm not saying we are "winning" or "loosing"...not sure it would even be possible to define either. I think its just difficult to say either way. Especially from way over here. In DL....with WiFi. And A/C. MMM A/C. And great tacos....and delicious boobies. God I love SoCal. All the fast beautiful cars...and women....wait...what was I talking about?

Ah yes....tacos and boobies. Yumm...

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by NirvanaMan

I like to temper it with accounts from actual soldiers living and breathing life over there, as well as accounts from actual Iraqi's.

You know what I'm seeing more and more often? Bush or Rumsfeld paint some rosey picture of what's going on in Iraq, and then a couple days later, a general on the ground there sweating under the collar and choosing their words very carefully so they don't actually say, "Ummm, yyyeah, our commander in chief is full of crap." You're right, it is nice to temper the administrations bs with the reality from those that are actually there making the decissions.

[NirvanaMan]

Can we actually blame the media for Iraq?

Clearly not...and no one suggested that. Certainly not I. What you can blame them for is the sensationalization of it all and the misrepresentation of reality.

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

You know what I'm seeing more and more often? Bush or Rumsfeld paint some rosey picture of what's going on in Iraq, and then a couple days later, a general on the ground there sweating under the collar.....

Ok so I know this is an overwhelmingly liberally-biased message board, so anything that is said that could possibly be deemed as supportive of what is seen as an evil republican regime will be struck down with furious anger, but I'll play for a post or two anyway.

Even if the administration is trying to paint a rosey picture over there, and I can't say that I have exactly seen that, the American people would never know about it because the media would not allow that slant. It didn't sell newspapers during Vietnam...and it still doesn't now. I'm sure the administration is trying to spin their successes and minimize their failures. Duh. And that PR BS game should be ignored. The issue I raised is that the media decided for the American people that this is a quagmire and a failure before it even began...and that is how it has been spun. A soliders or regiments succeses are never shown on TV today. Schools that are built, hospitals that are opened, ie...positive news...is never broadcasted. Again, this is not to say that this operation is a failure or a success, but if the tide was shifting, the media certainly would never let us know.

Support our troops. Bring them home!

Unfortunately, that sort of mentality is rather silly, overly simplistic, and untimately short-sighted. I don't think I need to get into the reasons as to why. Wether or not you agree with the actions taken, and 99% of those on this board disagree...you can't just abandon those people.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by NirvanaMan

Ok so I know this is an overwhelmingly liberally-biased message board, so anything that is said that could possibly be deemed as supportive of what is seen as an evil republican regime will be struck down with furious anger, but I'll play for a post or two anyway.

Even if the administration is trying to paint a rosey picture over there, and I can't say that I have exactly seen that, the American people would never know about it because the media would not allow that slant. It didn't sell newspapers during Vietnam...and it still doesn't now. I'm sure the administration is trying to spin their successes and minimize their failures. Duh. And that PR BS game should be ignored. The issue I raised is that the media decided for the American people that this is a quagmire and a failure before it even began...and that is how it has been spun. A soliders or regiments succeses are never shown on TV today. Schools that are built, hospitals that are opened, ie...positive news...is never broadcasted. Again, this is not to say that this operation is a failure or a success, but if the tide was shifting, the media certainly would never let us know.

NirvanaMan, I am currently unable to mojo you, but that post was certainly mojo worthy.

[BarTopDancer]

Originally Posted by NirvanaMan

Unfortunately, that sort of mentality is rather silly, overly simplistic, and untimately short-sighted. I don't think I need to get into the reasons as to why. Wether or not you agree with the actions taken, and 99% of those on this board disagree...you can't just abandon those people.

Well, sit down, because I agree with you. But we need an exit strategy and we need to get out. We aren't fixing anything, we aren't accomplishing anything other than killing and getting our own people killed. This *war* is endless. We came for the WMDs, there wern't any. We came to get Saddam out, we did that. We came to promote democracy, we're trying and failing. At some point, we need to just say ok, here is what we are going to do, and then we are going to have to leave.

We're ending up with a new generation of shell-shocked troops. In 20-30 years how many of these men and women will be the homeless vets we see on the corner, lives shattered because we jumped into something we had no way to get out of.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by NirvanaMan

Ok so I know this is an overwhelmingly liberally-biased message board, so anything that is said that could possibly be deemed as supportive of what is seen as an evil republican regime will be struck down with furious anger, but I'll play for a post or two anyway.

Wha, wha, get over yourself.

I responded to your call for "tempering" from the people who are there. Everything I've seen from the people who are there paint a far worse picture than the administration is spewing. And, more to the point, paint a picture that matches up almost blow-for-blow with what the pre-war intelligence said would happen - sectarian violence, ecalating towards full scale civil war, aided by foreing insurgency. This isn't what the Congressional detractors said, it's what Bush's military advisors predicted, and they were dead on right.

So yeah, I'm pretty okay with the media pointing that reality out, because all I can hope is that one of these days we'll learn from the fact that this make 6 for 6 over the past century or so where a US lead regime change, not instigated by local revolution, results in even bloodier civil war.

[NirvanaMan]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Wha, wha, get over yourself.

Wow! That seems uncalled for! In addition to not making sense. Get over myself? Huh? Where exactly in my post was I proclaiming my greatness? I was simply asserting what I believed to be obvious, but you are free to refute it.

That aside, it seems clear that our eyes and ears on the scene seem to have terribly different views of the same situation. Since none of us are there, I suppose it is difficult for any of us to say for sure what is going on, but I still have to believe accounts relayed to me from those on the scene that are angry with our media's lack of recognition for their successes and misportrayal of the actuality of the events. And I suppose yours would be happy with the medias portrayal and consider it to be good work. There are no successes. All is failure.

Again, we're not there, so we don't know. Oh well. So, its clearly not ok for the administration to spew their BS spin, without some sort of checks and balances. Fine. I agree. But it's ok for the media to spew their BS without any checks, so long as you happen to agree with their viewpoint? Hmmm, I can't say I agree with that philosophy.

That smiley is freakin awesome.

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Baghdad is a mess. But look at the north. 200,000 Kurds were killed by Saddam, and that region is doing so well that they refer to themselves as Kurdistan and are even trying to promote tourism. Of the 14 provinces, 11 are doing quite well. Three are a mess.

Three huge areas are a mess.

I see what you're saying. But let's say a positive story about the Kurds comes out. It will last for a day on the CNN.com website and disappear. Why? Often it's more to do with the number of hits and the responses they get from people reading what they post, not what they are offering us to read. The media hits on certain aspects because that's where people's interests are. People like to hear about trainwrecks and read about them. Iraq is a trainwreck.

Example: On another site that focuses on Disney. One article got a lot of feedback (on the linked Discussion Board) regarding a gossip piece about Lindsay Lohan. Another article talking about picturesque parts of Disneyland Paris got little interest. The Lohan piece got more views and hits than many of the other articles on the site. So, should that site post more gossip about Lohan-types on their site? That's up to them, but if they wanted to maintain the hits they got from Lohan, they might. It's not that they don't want us to hear about Disneyland Paris, they do, but people want to read about Lohan.

Originally Posted by NirvanaMan

Ok so I know this is an overwhelmingly liberally-biased message board, so anything that is said that could possibly be deemed as supportive of what is seen as an evil republican regime will be struck down with furious anger, but I'll play for a post or two anyway.

I think the people on this board, left or right, are very open to hear most everything people post. You're saying this board is close minded while labelling people on this board liberal, anti-Republican and angry.
Huh?

If you want actual accounts from someone there, then here's one: My sister dated someone who was stationed in Iraq. She's been there for a couple of years now. She said morale is low, most of the soldiers she comes into contact with think they are there for the wrong reasons, she's heard about our soldiers killing civillians for fun and for several months she was guarding a palace that has been converted into a club for military officers. There's an account for you.