Do you believe in God?

[Frogberto]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Thus my assertion that the only firm belief I have is that SOMETHING created this place. No matter how sciency you get, no matter how far back you get, the question remains, "Well, where did that come from?" Even the Big Bang leaves the question of where exactly that dense ball of gasses came from. Even in the multiple bang theory (i.e., the universe alternately expands and contracts forever), there's still no source for all of that expanding and contracting matter/energy.

By, as Einstein and the theory of relativity shows, energy is always conserved. Either it forms as matter, or it's expressed as energy, but the total amount in the universe always remains the same -- it cannot by definition escape the universe.

So, if we truly have a cyclical universe, with an endless series of expansions and contractions, then you have no need for a creator, because there is nothing there to "create" -- the cycle would continue under the laws of physics backwards and forwards into infinity.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Frogberto

So, if we truly have a cyclical universe, with an endless series of expansions and contractions, then you have no need for a creator, because there is nothing there to "create" -- the cycle would continue under the laws of physics backwards and forwards into infinity.

You've misread my question. Where did the expanding and contracting energy come from? For that matter, where did the universe that contains this expanding and contracting energy come from? What's outside of it? More universes? Okay, where did those come from?

[Frogberto]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

You've misread my question. Where did the expanding and contracting energy come from?

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That's like asking "where does it go?" In an infinite universe, it's always been there, period. There's no "creation" moment with infinity.

[RStar]

Originally Posted by Frogberto

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That's like asking "where does it go?" In an infinite universe, it's always been there, period. There's no "creation" moment with infinity.

To have "creation" you must have a begining (and an end as well), so yes, there is no "creation moment" in infinity because infinity has no begining and no end.

But doesn't saying "it's just always been there" take the same faith as saying "God made it"? (Of course the faith can be placed on various deities, nature, extra terestrial, ect). Just a thought, because if matter was not created then it's exestance makes no since.

This is a very stimulating thread. Wish I could have joined more, but my computer had more connectivity problems which I just resolved (I hope).

[Frogberto]

Originally Posted by RStar

To have "creation" you must have a begining (and an end as well), so yes, there is no "creation moment" in infinity because infinity has no begining and no end.

But doesn't saying "it's just always been there" take the same faith as saying "God made it"? (Of course the faith can be placed on various deities, nature, extra terestrial, ect). Just a thought, because if matter was not created then it's exestance makes no since.

This is a very stimulating thread. Wish I could have joined more, but my computer had more connectivity problems which I just resolved (I hope).

Absolutely. I think the current status of data shows that our universe is not an infinite one, but any questions of what's outside of our universe, whether other universes exist, or have different laws than ours, what came before the big bang, or whether our universe always existed requires data outside of space and time (or our universe), and thus can only be pure speculation, without supporting data, almost by definition.

But it sure is fun to think about.

[Moonliner]

Every time this type of discussion comes up I'm always reminded of a quote from Dr. Carl Sagan discussing the observations of Venus made by Lowell.

Venus shows no surface features at all. It must be covered with clouds. When the earth was covered with clouds there were rain forests and dinosaurs.

Observation: I can't see anything
Conclusion: Dinosaurs.

I think it ties in nicely with the opinion that many present about creation.

Observation: We cannot tell how the universe started.
Conclusion: God.

How about this for a possible alternative? How did the universe get started? What was the spark of creation, that moment where something suddenly existed... What was it? I don't have a clue. Humans don't have a clue. We are basically ignorant hairless apes. Just like our ancestors that created gods to explain everything from lightning to libidos. Sure we now know lightning is not gods fighting (well most of us anyway...) but we are still clueless primates when it comes to cosmology. When will humanity stop creating gods to cover the fact they are ignorant? I guess it will be when we really are gods and god knows how far we are from that....

[Moonliner]

Originally Posted by Frogberto

Absolutely. I think the current status of data shows that our universe is not an infinite one, but any questions of what's outside of our universe, whether other universes exist, or have different laws than ours, what came before the big bang, or whether our universe always existed requires data outside of space and time (or our universe), and thus can only be pure speculation, without supporting data, almost by definition.

But it sure is fun to think about.

Just to clarify, by definition there is only one Universe. There is nothing outside it, there are no other universes simply because where there to be such things they would, by definition, become part of the universe. Since the universe is defined as being everything there is.

That being said, I do believe that what we observe as "the universe" is not unique. There was not just one big bang. They are going off all over the place like bubbles in a glass of soda. But from our perspective inside our own bubble (that we currently define as "the universe") that's just all we can observe, the inside of our bubble.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Originally Posted by Moonliner

When will humanity stop creating gods to cover the fact they are ignorant?

Originally Posted by Moonliner

That being said, I do believe that what we observe as "the universe" is not unique. There was not just one big bang. They are going off all over the place like bubbles in a glass of soda. But from our perspective inside our own bubble (that we currently define as "the universe") that's just all we can observe, the inside of our bubble.

When will humanity stop creating unprovable theories to cover the fact they are ignorant?

Personally, I dig unprovable theories, because they are the same as beliefs (as you say above - "I believe"). I have plenty, including irrational ones, as most people do, and I'm cool with it.

This is why I love Alex Stroup - he has no belief beyond what he can prove, and that's cool. If you're going to argue against people having a belief system, you better not have one yourself, and that includes all beliefs.

I've been in and out of this thread so sorry if I'm repeating what others have said.

[RStar]

Originally Posted by Frogberto

Absolutely. I think the current status of data shows that our universe is not an infinite one, but any questions of what's outside of our universe, whether other universes exist, or have different laws than ours, what came before the big bang, or whether our universe always existed requires data outside of space and time (or our universe), and thus can only be pure speculation, without supporting data, almost by definition.

But it sure is fun to think about.

It sure is! I think that's why I like Science Fiction so much. And as a kid I was facenated by Dinosaurs and time travel stories. The laws that make up our known part of the universe and all the new discoveries are just so facinating.

[Alex]

There are theories for that, that so far we haven't the technology to devise observable experiments.

And if no matter how far you go back it requires an answer to the question "how did that get there" I don't see how it ultimately requires a creator because that just moves the question to "how did the creator get there?" So far, every time we've moved "creation" farther back it has been through evidence of another new physical process. I don't see where continuing that chain eventually requires a sentient process of creation.

It took millenia for mankind to realize that time is not a constant and the mathematical basis on which it is relative to perspective. Perhaps it will take another 15 millennia for someone to figure out the process by which the initial conditions of the universe came into existence. I still see no reason to simply assume a non-physical process.