Nothing like proving the point-

[Alex]

Personally, I view interdenominational violence to be a hugely systemic element if Islam. But fortunately one that the vast majority of Muslims have rationalized out of their own practice of the faith.

Combine these systemic elements with social conditions that tend to create violent radicalism (poverty, lack of education, insularity) and widespread violent fundamentist Islam is pretty much inevitable.

It is a simple fact that the holy source text for the religion explicitly lays out how non-believers are to be overran, oppressed, and forcibly converted.

Certainly people of all faiths have found ways to use their faith in support of violence but some require more twisting than others (with Christianity, specifically, it tends to require going to the grumpy-God of the Old Testament rather than the specific teachings of "Jesus Christ."

[Strangler Lewis]

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

It is a simple fact that the holy source text for the religion explicitly lays out how non-believers are to be overran, oppressed, and forcibly converted.

The old OT, a font of beauty and wisdom, also runs red with blood, anger and genocidal intolerance.

Originally Posted by Alex Stroup

Certainly people of all faiths have found ways to use their faith in support of violence but some require more twisting than others (with Christianity, specifically, it tends to require going to the grumpy-God of the Old Testament rather than the specific teachings of "Jesus Christ."

The holy source text for the Christian religion is not just the teachings of Jesus Christ. It is in great measure Paul, which is all about conversion and, impliedly, how the unconverted are not worthy. It is also, ultimately, Revelations. While the Christian holy source text has an eschatological focus, it appears that the world has not ended, and that same Christian holy source text has provided many with ample inspiration and opportunity to play God.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis

It is in great measure Paul, which is all about conversion and, impliedly, how the unconverted are not worthy.

To the contrary.

The New Testament (Paul's writings specifically) is about how none are worthy. Paul called himself the least of all and the greatest of all sinners. Paul was despised by the religious establishment during his day because not only did he turn from being a member of that very leadership, he dared to extend the circle from Jews only to include gentiles.

I won't bore people here by referencing his writings, but I very much disagree with your assessment.

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Paul was despised by the religious establishment during his day...

Let us not forget John and George.

Though people mostly left Ringo alone.

[wendybeth]

Christians didn't bother with effigies- they char-broiled the actual people.


All religions, as our swanky leader pointed out, commit crimes against nature and humanity in the name of their god/s, goddesses and such. We can go around pointing fingers at everyone and get in a jab, but we are dealing with the here and now. I'm going to be honest- I am having a hard time trusting the Muslim faith to contain their (hopefully) 'fringe' element and I do fear that the hatred, mistrust and malice runs a bit deeper than the moderates would have us believe. I'm mildly literate in Islamic history and I have a fair idea of how and why things are so crazy right now, but the simple fact remains that the quote from the Pope regarding the Koranic command to slay the infidel was causing major problems six centuries ago, and continues to do so today. I fail to see how we can ever peacefully co-exist with such a mindset, particularily if we are to lead a New Testament type of life.

[Strangler Lewis]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

To the contrary.

The New Testament (Paul's writings specifically) is about how none are worthy. Paul called himself the least of all and the greatest of all sinners. Paul was despised by the religious establishment during his day because not only did he turn from being a member of that very leadership, he dared to extend the circle from Jews only to include gentiles.

I won't bore people here by referencing his writings, but I very much disagree with your assessment.

I said impliedly, and I didnt' say anything against Paul. Paul was a ballsy MF (though a bit of a smug prig). However, the reality is that Acts and Paul's letters are a major part of the New Testament. The plot of those writings is conversion. If you're looking for an excuse--and a lot of people are--how hard is it to leap from that general concept to the persecution of others (which, of course, was Paul's first job).

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis

I said impliedly, and I didnt' say anything against Paul. Paul was a ballsy MF (though a bit of a smug prig). However, the reality is that Acts and Paul's letters are a major part of the New Testament. The plot of those writings is conversion.

Well, Paul was an Apostle, so his entire purpose in life was the establishment of the Christian church through Italy and Greece (primarily). And yes, there large majority of the NT is the writings of Paul (and we could get into the whole "inspired by God" aspect, but that's not the point).

I suppose the problem that I had with your original statement was that there is an implication that the unconverted are not worthy. The unconverted are not worthy of what?

As far as Paul being smug....there's a fine line between smug and certain. I suppose you could describe him that way, but being in prison, under house arrest, blind in later years, ship wrecked, facing beheading among other things.....those things might have a tendency to be humbling.