Yes, we can. - Page 110

Ghoulish Delight · 05-21-2008, 11:48 AM

Joe Biden says a mouthful

You want to talk about emboldening our enemies, 6 years of aggression without engagement has done more to embolden Iran and motivate them to become a real threat than anything else. It's a failed policy, it's time to freaking try another tack.

NOT, as McCain would like us to believe, with the goal of making Iran our bestest buddy, or of appeasing them, or of letting them have their way. With the goal of actually getting a handle on the situation, getting as much information as we possibly can on ALL of the factors involved. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Not talking to them does nothing but make it harder to really know what's going on. And that's reflected in the faulty intelligence that continues to pile up and (mis)guide our foreign policy decisions.

Not that talks will necessarily fix the intelligence, but it will provide another data point to refine what we know.

scaeagles · 05-21-2008, 12:13 PM

I don't buy that.

Terrorism is a means to an uncompromising end. Ahmadinejad supports terrorism because it helps him in his uncompromising goal of the elimination of Israel. As long as we are friends and defenders of Israel that will be directed at us as well.

I don't think Obama wants Iran as our best friends. Again, it comes down to being naive.

To think that iran would be straight forward at a negotiating table is as naive as when Clinton believed North Korea really wouldn't use the nuke plants we built them to assist in their nuclear programs, because, golly, they said they wouldn't do that.

Ghoulish Delight · 05-21-2008, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles

To think that iran would be straight forward at a negotiating table is as naive as when Clinton believed North Korea really wouldn't use the nuke plants we built them to assist in their nuclear programs, because, golly, they said they wouldn't do that.

Whoever claimed that they'd expect them to be straight forward? That's not the point. Of COURSE they'll be dishonest. Of COURSE their goals will not match ours. Of COURSE they would be trying to get the most out of any negotiation, any way they can.

All of that is beside the point. Lies can be just as informative as the truth. And negotiations that end in absolutely nothing happening or no deal being made can be just as influential as a unilateral cease fire agreement. The whole point is that having a dialog is a means of learning something about the enemy. No one has ever made the ludicrous commitment that by agreeing to talks we are going to agree to demands. That's absurd and simply not going to happen.

By not talking, you are guaranteeing that you're shutting out a source of information. Whether what they actually say at the talks is truthful or not is entirely irrelevant. The more interface we have with them, the more we know them.

Motorboat Cruiser · 05-21-2008, 12:33 PM

See, to me, it seems naive to think that terrorism, a tactic, will ever be eliminated by the use of force alone. And that seems to be all that the conservatives can come up with - bomb em' - bomb em' some more. And all that appears to do is increase their recruiting numbers.

The real goal of terrorism - to instill fear in a society, disrupt lives, and cause people to implement stupid measures that don't make them any safer but make them feel safer, at the loss of freedom - seems to be going exactly as planned. And as an added bonus, we slowly bankrupt ourselves fighting a never-ending war. Meanwhile, the real terrorists such as those that actually committed the atrocities of 9/11 live out their days as heroes to their people for attacking the evil USA, all while we continue to fight a war against the only secular society in the middle east (at least it used to be) - the one that never attacked us. And the icing on the cake is that they are slowly turning into a theocracy, not a democracy.

Sorry, but I just don't see that we've done anything by the actions you suggest other than simply make things worse, create more enemies, and watch a few of our soldiers die needlessly each week.

I'm more than willing to try a different strategy, thank you very much, and by last report, so is about 80% of the population.

innerSpaceman · 05-21-2008, 01:25 PM

scaeagles is collectively pwned!

Motorboat Cruiser · 05-21-2008, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

scaeagles is collectively pwned!

I could have told you that long before this thread was ever started.

Prudence · 05-21-2008, 01:48 PM

I still maintain that negotiations with Iran and similar would be less about our relationship with Iran and more about our relationship with everyone else. I will try to make this clear when I am running for office.

scaeagles · 05-21-2008, 01:51 PM

But you are ignoring the fact that in the last example of poorly run and naive negotiations, North Korea ended up with nukes. Sorry, I'd rather not talk to a rogue state than have them end up a nuclear power. And they, in turn, were assisting Syria in building a nuke plant that Israel destroyed.

I do not consider myself to be pwned in the least.

Gemini Cricket · 05-21-2008, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I do not consider myself to be pwned in the least.

Just don't pwn yourself. You'll grow hair on your palms.

Motorboat Cruiser · 05-21-2008, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Sorry, I'd rather not talk to a rogue state than have them end up a nuclear power.

Did you feel the same way when we armed "our friends" Saddam and Bin Laden? Or is it only Clinton that chaps your hide? I assume so since your avatar is a picture of the guy that helped make that happen. Was Reagan wrong?

05-21-2008, 11:48 AM	#1
Ghoulish Delight I Floop the Pig Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Alternative Swankstyle Posts: 19,348	Joe Biden says a mouthful You want to talk about emboldening our enemies, 6 years of aggression without engagement has done more to embolden Iran and motivate them to become a real threat than anything else. It's a failed policy, it's time to freaking try another tack. NOT, as McCain would like us to believe, with the goal of making Iran our bestest buddy, or of appeasing them, or of letting them have their way. With the goal of actually getting a handle on the situation, getting as much information as we possibly can on ALL of the factors involved. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Not talking to them does nothing but make it harder to really know what's going on. And that's reflected in the faulty intelligence that continues to pile up and (mis)guide our foreign policy decisions. Not that talks will necessarily fix the intelligence, but it will provide another data point to refine what we know. __________________ 'He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.' -TJ
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05-21-2008, 12:13 PM	#2
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	I don't buy that. Terrorism is a means to an uncompromising end. Ahmadinejad supports terrorism because it helps him in his uncompromising goal of the elimination of Israel. As long as we are friends and defenders of Israel that will be directed at us as well. I don't think Obama wants Iran as our best friends. Again, it comes down to being naive. To think that iran would be straight forward at a negotiating table is as naive as when Clinton believed North Korea really wouldn't use the nuke plants we built them to assist in their nuclear programs, because, golly, they said they wouldn't do that.
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05-21-2008, 12:33 PM	#4
Motorboat Cruiser Cruiser of Motorboats Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: So Cal Posts: 3,665	See, to me, it seems naive to think that terrorism, a tactic, will ever be eliminated by the use of force alone. And that seems to be all that the conservatives can come up with - bomb em' - bomb em' some more. And all that appears to do is increase their recruiting numbers. The real goal of terrorism - to instill fear in a society, disrupt lives, and cause people to implement stupid measures that don't make them any safer but make them feel safer, at the loss of freedom - seems to be going exactly as planned. And as an added bonus, we slowly bankrupt ourselves fighting a never-ending war. Meanwhile, the real terrorists such as those that actually committed the atrocities of 9/11 live out their days as heroes to their people for attacking the evil USA, all while we continue to fight a war against the only secular society in the middle east (at least it used to be) - the one that never attacked us. And the icing on the cake is that they are slowly turning into a theocracy, not a democracy. Sorry, but I just don't see that we've done anything by the actions you suggest other than simply make things worse, create more enemies, and watch a few of our soldiers die needlessly each week. I'm more than willing to try a different strategy, thank you very much, and by last report, so is about 80% of the population. Last edited by Motorboat Cruiser : 05-21-2008 at 01:15 PM. Reason: just fixing a few issues as a result of being brain dead. ;)
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05-21-2008, 01:25 PM	#5
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	scaeagles is collectively pwned!
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05-21-2008, 01:48 PM	#7
Prudence Beelzeboobs, Esq. Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Gavel - I haz it Posts: 6,287	I still maintain that negotiations with Iran and similar would be less about our relationship with Iran and more about our relationship with everyone else. I will try to make this clear when I am running for office. __________________ traguna macoities tracorum satis de
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05-21-2008, 01:51 PM	#8
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	But you are ignoring the fact that in the last example of poorly run and naive negotiations, North Korea ended up with nukes. Sorry, I'd rather not talk to a rogue state than have them end up a nuclear power. And they, in turn, were assisting Syria in building a nuke plant that Israel destroyed. I do not consider myself to be pwned in the least.
	Submit to Quotes