Yes, we can.

[Alex]

I personally read it to be more of an attempt to throw it back in their faces uses their beloved religious examples than an attempt to equate Jesus and Obama (personally, for me, one has inspired many fewer wars and murders).

But I really don't understand the messianic thing. Obama thinks he is the one best able to lead this country to where he thinks it needs to be. Name me one person who has willingly run for president who doesn't think that.

But if we're going to compare messianic worldviews, I'll take that over believing yourself to be directly doing god's work which is certainly the messianic view of our current president.

[scaeagles]

You know, you are right Alex, when you say that the all people who wish to be President do so because they feel are best for the job. I'll go ahead and completely back off my thinking that Obama is a part of it. I do think, however, as Obama is a Christian man, that he does believe himself to be doing the lord's work. Of course there will be the retort that it won't dictate his policies, but of course it will to an extent, as his religious views will influence his thinking of right and wrong.

The messianic complex is more like a cult forming through a large portion of his supporters. I did a bit of research, and apparently almost immediately after Palin's speech at the RNC there were items being sold with this statement on it. It was first made publically, at least to my knowlege, by a representative from Tennessee (D. Steve Choen) who directly compared Obama to Jesus in his statement during a speech on the house floor.

“If you want change, you want the Democratic Party,” Cohen said. “Barack Obama was a community organizer like Jesus, who our minister prayed about. Pontius Pilate was a governor.”

If they are trying to throw it back in the face of the "religious right", that is a completely fine tactic. I just think it solidifies the whole messianic complex being discussed in the election - again, I will absolutely concede that it is not Obama himself, but a large portion of his supporters. It is clever, no doubt, but comparing Palin to Pilate might be seen as a bit extreme. i see no other way to interpret the "Pilate was a governor" portion of that.

[innerSpaceman]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Of course there will be the retort that it won't dictate his [Obama's] policies, but of course it will to an extent, as his religious views will influence his thinking of right and wrong.

Well, here's one. He actually says his religious views are dictating his policy toward gay marriage rights, and I think he's lying. His strategic electoral views are dictating his policy, I'm sure of it.

So it seems, whether they say so or not, what dictates a president's policies, whether by religious belief or not, is truly between them and their god.

[innerSpaceman]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

If they are trying to throw it back in the face of the "religious right", that is a completely fine tactic. I just think it solidifies the whole messianic complex being discussed in the election - again, I will absolutely concede that it is not Obama himself, but a large portion of his supporters. It is clever, no doubt, but comparing Palin to Pilate might be seen as a bit extreme. i see no other way to interpret the "Pilate was a governor" portion of that.

I think you are missing the chronology here. Of course they're trying to throw it back in Palin's face, and of course the reference to governor means her.

In her red-meat speech, Palin was the one who threw the snarky Obama-is-Messiah reference into the national ring. It's been circling among Fundies for months via the right-wing nutjob talk shows and such. She's the one who brought the vile insult to the national stage, along with the disgusting demeaning of community service work.

It's fantastic quid-pro-quo to point out that Jesus did community service and Pilate was the governor. She's a fvcktard and, in this case, it doesn't much matter what effect this has on radical fundamentalists. It's brilliant turnabout that has us Democrats chuckling in good spirits.

[Strangler Lewis]

I just see it as an "oh yeah" joke about the Republicans maligning Obama's experience as a community organizer. If the shoe was on the other foot and the Democrats maligned a Republican's experience in a community or church organization, they'd be accused of being out of touch and expecting government to solve all our problems.

[scaeagles]

I didn't see it as demeaning community service work.

In the same way that you see (and it is in fact) a clever retort about Jesus and Pilate, the "demeaning" of community service work was a clever retort to how she had been (by dems, not specifically Obama) only the mayor of a small town (or whatever they were saying specifically) and was therefore completely unqualified.

Community service was not demeaned, it was citing community service work as a qualification to be President that was demeaned.

[Strangler Lewis]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I didn't see it as demeaning community service work.

In the same way that you see (and it is in fact) a clever retort about Jesus and Pilate, the "demeaning" of community service work was a clever retort to how she had been (by dems, not specifically Obama) only the mayor of a small town (or whatever they were saying specifically) and was therefore completely unqualified.

Community service was not demeaned, it was citing community service work as a qualification to be President that was demeaned.

If you saw Giuliani's speech, you know he started it. He said ithe phrase "community organizer" in a puzzled manner and laughed, like it was some weird, hippiedippie, fake pseudo-intellectual thing that he had never heard of before. The "Drill baby drill" crowd ate it up, and Palin continued the theme.

If they wanted to not demean community service--or, more specifically, community service performed in big cities--they would have used the same rhetorical line the Democrats did with McCain's service record: "I respect, blah, blah, blah . . . BUT."

[sleepyjeff]

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis

I just see it as an "oh yeah" joke about the Republicans maligning Obama's experience as a community organizer. If the shoe was on the other foot and the Democrats maligned a Republican's experience in a community or church organization, they'd be accused of being out of touch and expecting government to solve all our problems.

A fair point.

[innerSpaceman]

Well, she stated that very badly. Just about everyone who works in community service took offense at that remark, from what I've been able to glean.


The RNC audience took it very well. But she was on TV. If it was a specific jab at Obama (and I don't doubt your explanation), it went over the head of the community service workers in America. Ooops.

[scaeagles]

Quite probably. The spin of how many wanted to hear it though, comes in to play. I want to hear certain things from McCain, so it is easy to attach the meaning I want if it is close. Dems expect to hear things they dislike from a republican, so it is easy to attach the meaning they expect.

Same thing goes with Obama speaking with the roles of democrats and republicans reversed.