Yes, we can.

[Alex]

To fact check myself. Not everybody under $200,000 will get $500 or $1000 refundable credit. The proposal phases it out from $150,000 to $200,000 so some would get partials.

In reading to support myself I found this which explains the issue pretty well. I'm sure somebody will disagree but I generally find the fact checking at that site to be pretty non-partisan. If you want to find a list of statements where Obama really is wrong or distorting you'll find them listed there.


Leo, as to your last post. I am fine with that. Really I am. What gets under my skin (more than it should) is often that you simply post something that is a reiteration of what you've read at one of the prominent right-leaning blogs (not that you're the only one I frequently see things and say "ah, that must have just hit the front page at Drudge or Instapundit or MyDD or Daily Kos or something) and then rely on us to fact check you. Sometimes this only takes a few seconds and it is really annoying that you couldn't have just done that yourself.

It is much more interesting to debate fundamental philosophical decisions (is a $500 refundable payroll tax credit good policy) than issues of easily verifiable fact (what is the basis for Obama or McCain saying X).

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by Alex

What gets under my skin (more than it should) is often that you simply post something that is a reiteration of what you've read at one of the prominent right-leaning blogs (not that you're the only one I frequently see things and say "ah, that must have just hit the front page at Drudge or Instapundit or MyDD or Daily Kos or something) and then rely on us to fact check you. Sometimes this only takes a few seconds and it is really annoying that you couldn't have just done that yourself.

I confess to that at times. However, I don't think that I did that in this case. What started all of this was my interpretation of what Obama said. I stand by my interpretation though I know you disagree.

You have, however, made me stop to think about a couple of things that have bothered me about Obama.

[scaeagles]

No, not at all, JW. I don't know where you get that I defined it as "all tax cuts are a redistribution of wealth". I am for EVERYONE paying less taxes and having smaller government.

My definition of redistribution of wealth is taking money that is paid to the government in the form of federal income taxes by anyone and giving it to those who have paid no federal income taxes.

[Alex]

[In reply to scaegles reply to JWBear]

Like John McCain's $5000 health insurance tax credit (which everybody would get regardless of how much, including zero, they pay in income taxes)? Or his proposal (if I recall correctly) to double the EITC? That right there is about $10,000 per person (if they have 2 dependents) in wealth redistribution by McCain, which actually may be larger than that the proposed refundable tax credit increases by Obama.

If Obama's level of wealth redistribution was cause to throw you back at McCain, is McCain's cause to through you back to abstain?

[scaeagles]

This is indeed true. McCain is also proposing large redistribution of wealth tax credits.

DAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDA MNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMN ITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNIT DAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDA MNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMN ITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNIT DAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDA MNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNITDAMNIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!

Just when I find some form of righteous indignation it is made apparent that McCain is indeed proposing the same.

Now I'm back to only maybe voting for McCain.

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Now I'm back to only maybe voting for McCain.

Yes Leo... I encourage you to take a stand and not vote! And while you're at it, convince all your friends not to vote for McCain either!

[Alex]

The my work here is done.

Just keep in mind that with McCain so far behind at this point the only hope they have is massively inflamed righteous indignation and that it no longer matters much if there is a lot of reality behind it since if it successfully fans flames they won't cool until after the election.

So, before giving in to the indignation pause to see if you're being played.

This is not to say you lack good reason to oppose Obama. On purely philosophical grounds you are completely at odds. But opposition need not require outrage.

[wendybeth]

What, besides the tax thing, do you dislike about Obama, Leo? I'm just wondering if that's the only roadblock to your voting for him. So many conservative (and namely Reaganites) have expressed support for him in spite of his party affiliation and I truly admire people who are able to find the courage to do so, especially in this rather vicious climate.

By the way, very cool to be receptive to our arguements. I really do try and do the same, because I've always believed truth lies in the middle of most extremes. Like I said, I've voted Republican before and no doubt will again. This polarized political situation is very unhealthy, for everyone.

[scaeagles]

Yeah, like I said I don't post here because everyone agrees with me. Sometimes my arguments are solid, sometimes, while my arguments may be valid, there are counters to what I've got to say.

I'm not particularly interested in rehashing my dislike of Obama' policies, as we've been over them, but since you asked.....and again, I'm not trying to debate what has been debated, I'm only trying to answer WB.

I think he is naive and dangerous when it comes to foreign policy, and I think Biden is no genious there either (for example, Obama opposed the surge and still denies it was a success, and Biden wanted to split the country into three parts). I do believe he is at heart a socialist. I believe he wants bigger government. I beleive he will gut the military budget. The thought of most important decisions being made by the triumverate of Pelosi, Reid, and Obama scares the crap out of me.

That's just the quick stuff.

[wendybeth]

Why would he gut the military budget when he's already stated he'd like to expand the military? Other than that, fair enough. I don't think Palin is exactly qualified for the criteria you set forth, but maybe McCain will live through his tenure. Most dissenting conservatives cite his selection of Palin as the last straw for them, but who knows? It could work out- look at Truman. Of course, he actually had loads of experience, but......never mind.