Yes, we can.

[scaeagles]

Indeed, Alex. But I regard the President as much more than a figurehead. The power of the veto, submission of budgets, commander in chief, major director of foreign policy....these are all powerful things.

[Strangler Lewis]

Since we've had any number of president-led military actions since World War II without a formal congressional declaration of war, I don't see how it can be said that the President is a figurehead.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

CP, are you suggesting that you don't want all aspects of Obama discussed here? If so, I'll step out, because i am not an Obama enthusiast.

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

Sorry if I took away from your thread - it was not my intention. I tried to focus on responding to some things being said here and once it stopped; I stopped.

Sorry for the hijack.

Eh, no worries. I knew when I started it that my "hey who digs Obama" thread would shortly become "let's post our disparate political views in a show of supposed debate but no one persuades anyone else" which I still dislike. Even as I am enthused about this race, I continue to stay out of political threads (oh wait, there's just one, and now this one, of course) so excuse me if I don't do much "debating".

Originally Posted by mousepod

But if he's the candidate, here's the kind of thing that will make me worried...

clip from Chris Matthews' Hardball.

News flash - one idiot didn't do his homework for a freakin' interview.

I looked at the usual sources -Thomas etal - but I found this very cool site that compiles all sorts of data.

Clinton:

Statistics: Hillary Clinton has sponsored 354 bills since Jan 22, 2001, of which 307 haven't made it out of committee (Extremely Poor) and 2 were successfully enacted (Average, relative to peers). Clinton has co-sponsored 1723 bills during the same time period (Average, relative to peers).

Obama:

Statistics: Barack Obama has sponsored 129 bills since Jan 4, 2005, of which 120 haven't made it out of committee (Poor) and 1 were successfully enacted (Average, relative to peers). Obama has co-sponsored 545 bills during the same time period (Average, relative to peers).

The reason they did so "poorly" was due to being in the minority party. All of the site's wording aside - You mean to tell me that during all those years of experience, she didn't do much more than he did?

Originally Posted by NirvanaMan

I only want a President that will do two things:

• Let me keep my own money
• Let me keep my guns (or right to own them)

<snip>

But, I have to vote cause well, I can't complain if I don't.

You're where I was after the Contract with America fell apart. All you can do is vote Libertarian, because they're the only ones that agree with you. Everyone else wants your money for one reason or another. Have fun, I know I did.

[Not Afraid]

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

Clinton:Obama:The reason they did so "poorly" was due to being in the minority party. All of the site's wording aside - You mean to tell me that during all those years of experience, she didn't do much more than he did?

By "all those years of experience" you mean the 4 years Clinton was a Senat orbefore Obama became one?

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Originally Posted by Not Afraid

By "all those years of experience" you mean the 4 years Clinton was a Senat orbefore Obama became one?

Yes, I do. I'll say it again - You mean to tell me, with all those years of experience, she didn't do much more than he did?

[innerSpaceman]

As I've elaborated before, I think the figurehead status is in relation to domestic issues. Oh, I believe the Administration can have a big influence on Congress, and good use of the bully pulpit can be very powerful to the populace.


But I mostly think the power of the president lies in foreign affairs. So once I've determined that neither candidate A nor B will be Atilla the Hun, I don't much care which one wins. Hence, i pick the girl.

[Not Afraid]

You know, I have to say that nothing has turned me off from Obama more than the Hillary bashing that has taken place here. Change? What change? It's the same old BS. It make me glad I voted for Clinton - even if it was a difficult decision. Now, I'm pretty happy with my choice.

[Strangler Lewis]

I voted for Obama. However, I can't say I'm moved by the excited people behind him. Reminds me of the Ross Perot phenomenon. In general, there are too many people in this country who can't be "energized" to vote unless their candidate is "the next big thing" or they're being asked to "throw the bums out" in some term limits vote. Yes, the Democrats and Republicans are too much alike, but there are meaningful differences. A Libertarian or a Green vote is just a lazy, whiny protest vote that, as we saw with Nader, can have damaging consequences.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Originally Posted by NA

You know, I have to say that nothing has turned me off from Obama more than the Hillary bashing that has taken place here. Change? What change? It's the same old BS. It make me glad I voted for Clinton - even if it was a difficult decision. Now, I'm pretty happy with my choice.

Did you want to respond to the actual statistics I quoted, or did you want to repeat that you like Clinton? I already read that part a few posts ago. I fail to see how my post is bashing, I'm quoting statistics.

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis

A Libertarian or a Green vote is just a lazy, whiny protest vote that, as we saw with Nader, can have damaging consequences.

Wow. "Either yer Red or yer Blue, and if ya don't fit, yer a whiner and a troublemaker!" Oh yeah, Us vs. Them, that's always been the way to fixing things.

Purple and Proud

[Strangler Lewis]

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

"Either yer Red or yer Blue, and if ya don't fit, yer a whiner and a troublemaker!" Oh yeah, Us vs. Them, that's always been the way to fixing things.

Purple and Proud

The sad reality is that it's every voter's duty to vote for the least worst candidate who stands a legitimate chance of winning. Voting for Perot in '92--which helped elect Clinton--was not a garbage vote the same way voting for Nader in 2000 or Perot in '96 was. It appeared for a while that Perot in '92 had, scarily, a chance to win.

Green and Libertarian candidates have effectively zero national profile. Nader, for all his good work, was a celebrity candidate. Unless someone who identifies as Green or Libertarian is willing to devote all their free time to building the profile of these parties in the public consciousness, simply pulling the lever for them every four years is whiny "throw the bums out" stuff and is no better than staying home.