The random political thoughts thread (Part Deux)

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I think the problem isnt the speech, but the people who decide what they've heard is reason to be violent.

So if someone shouts "FIRE!" in a crowded theater, they are blameless for the result? If someone goes out and incites a riot, then they are not criminaly liable; but everyone else should get arrested?

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by JWBear

So if someone shouts "FIRE!" in a crowded theater, they are blameless for the result? If someone goes out and incites a riot, then they are not criminaly liable; but everyone else should get arrested?

This discussion hasn't been about incitement of riots. Through all the Health Care town halls, I am only aware of one turning violent, and that was a protester getting beat up by some union members.

I thought this part of the discussion was about when someone says something and others have time to actually think about what was said and then turn violent on their own at a later time, is the person who uttered the words they dwelt upon to blame.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I thought this part of the discussion was about when someone says something and others have time to actually think about what was said and then turn violent on their own at a later time, is the person who uttered the words they dwelt upon to blame.

I'll go let Charles Manson know he should be expecting a pardon.

[scaeagles]

Interesting reading Alex. I fully admit I hadn't heard anything about those articles, and don't know how widely they were publicized.

Does anyone here believe that the antiwar movement was to blame for that? I think HE was to blame for that. Just as I think we are all responsible for our own actions.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Does anyone here believe that the antiwar movement was to blame for that? I think HE was to blame for that. Just as I think we are all responsible for our own actions.

Of course we're all responsible for our own actions. And of course there are generally way too many inputs into a specific persons behaviors for it to be said conclusively that any one input absolutely let to an output.

But to say that a general climate of ideas and rhetoric might increase incidences of specific behavior can be true without saying the individuals who do them are less responsible.

I have no idea why the Asan Akbar did what he did, I haven't paid enough attention (and I am not quick to say that any particular nutjob in the last 6 month was taking marching orders from Beck or O'Reilly). Plus, when spectacular news events of antisocial behavior happen we're all very fond of connecting dots with almost no information and in ways that just happen to support our already existing views of the world (as an example, even though the motiviations of the two kids at Columbine are pretty well known now, the popular thought on it is still seriously erroneous).

I have no problem at all with the idea that within elements of the anti-war movement the general tone of discourse led some people to greater levels of personal or property violence than they would have ever done left to their own devices. And just a few years ago this wasn't such a far-fetched idea among those on the right. See, for example, the release in 2006 of a fake documentary Death of a President that presented in graphic detail the assassination of George Bush. To hear Bush's supporters at the time any attempt then made should result in the execution of the filmmakers while many of those on the right said it was just talk. Now we switch sides and everybody gets to call the other side hypocrites while presenting their own poop smells of daisies.

That said, for the most part I think the fringe-advocates of the anti-war movement were never really placed front and center in the overall national discourse. They certainly weren't hosting their own national TV and radio shows watched by millions of people.

And when Obama is being presented as someone actively seeking to euthanize the elderly, turn our country into a Islamic caliphate, told that he actively hates white people, that if his agenda is allowed to succeed it will mean not only the moral decay of our country but quite possibly the end of our nation, and when the echo chamber of these thoughts is large and pervasive within certain communities, I will not be surprised if one of them is inspired to commit atrocities with the expectation that at least their own little sub-community will embrace them for it as a hero.

Will that reduce ther personal responsibility of the person who does it? Not at all. Does that absolve the people who contributed to the echo chamber, especially if they were doing it cravenly and cynically in pursuit of ratings as an "entertainer"? Again, not at all (nor does that mean their responsibility is criminal).

[Betty]

Originally Posted by Alex

And when Obama is being presented as someone actively seeking to euthanize the elderly, turn our country into a Islamic caliphate, told that he actively hates white people, that if his agenda is allowed to succeed it will mean not only the moral decay of our country but quite possibly the end of our nation.

Wow. Do they really say all that? Wow.

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by Betty

Wow. Do they really say all that? Wow.

Yes, and more.

[JWBear]

Just read this on Huffington post:

Oh, and there are also examples of fringey types equating the outreach effort to the Civilian National Security Force and "Hitler youth brigades" and admonishing, "Leave our kids alone!" It's like the right wing blogosphere went home, dosed themselves with mescaline and sat around watching History Channel reruns on mute while Pink Floyd's The Wall played in the background.

[scaeagles]

Hey JW - just read this off of a link (for full disclosure) off of the Drudge Report.

Briefly, the Earth Liberation Front destroyed some property.

Should Obama be liable for the damages because of his stance on global warming?

Of course not. They very suggestion is ridiculous.

Various eco-terrorist actions are large and while I could not venture to guess what percentage of violence this might take on in the realm of demostic terrorism, I would suspect it is sizable. I do not for one moment blame anyone except those who did it.

[katiesue]

I guess I was the only parent who got the email from the school about the Obama speech and thought - wow that's pretty cool. The President is going to address students about the importance of education. Pretty cool that with technology they can all view it at the same time.