The random political thoughts thread (Part Deux)

[Strangler Lewis]

Originally Posted by Alex

And to pre-empt the eventual question that comes up. If torture was the only thing standing between us avoiding another 9/11, it would still be wrong to torture and that would be, in my view, and acceptable price to pay for standing by some very important principles.

I would disagree with that as a theoretical matter. It arguably is another species of exigent circumstances, a familiar doctrine that says police don't need a search warrant if they have reasonable belief of an imminent or ongoing harm. Also, in such situations, I would draw both a moral and legal distinction between what might properly be done to save lives and what would be appropriate to admit in a criminal prosecution.

The problem that I have with the argument is that is akin to the capital punishment defense, "Well, would you execute Hitler?" in that it has little basis in reality. So far, no one executed in the U.S. actually has been Hitler, and so far, there's no evidence that we tortured anyone with a focused and reasonable belief that they knew where the bomb was.

I also heard someone say that a problem with torture is that it is bad and lazy intelligence gathering in that the torturer generally has an answer in mind that he wants to hear in order for the torture to stop.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis

I would disagree with that as a theoretical matter.

I agree. When we live in a world where it is possible to know with absolute certainty that Person A absolutely knows Fact B which will prevent Catastrophe C and torture is the only way to get it, then my view will change.

So I should have written "if we believed that torture was all that stood between preventing another 9/11..."

In the real world I don't know that the requistie perfect knowledge is possible but if you're holding a prisoner and believe it to be so then go ahead and torture, but do it knowing your violating our principles and very well may be punished for it. If it is so important it is worth torturing then it is important enough to live with the consequences.