The random political thoughts thread (Part Deux) - Page 625

Alex · 09-23-2011, 10:58 AM

No, I get your overall point. I don't even disagree with it.

That said, you're the one who said "A and B therefore C" where A is murky (in that I could pick a different set of equally true numbers that present a different picture of employment growth), B is subjective (in that you're just deciding on your own whether an 18% increase is "slight" and whether the baseline was a proper size and you've now kind of compromised yourself by clarifying that the 17% growth was not over 30 years but over two years), and C doesn't necessarily follow from A and B even if taken as true as you present them.

I know you feel that your logic is irrelevant if your conclusion is satisfying (and so any push back is just "picking apart the details", I just disagree. Your conclusion is irrelevant, even if correct, if your logic is unsatisfying. YMMV.

JWBear · 09-23-2011, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex

I know you feel that your logic is irrelevant if your conclusion is satisfying

So, you can read minds now? You truely are a humorless, unemotional, inhuman Vulcan. Congratulations.

Alex · 09-23-2011, 12:56 PM

Just for the record, that conclusion (about my genetic origins) is not supported by the evidence you preceded it with.

But no, I don't read minds. But I have watched you react over several years to anybody questioning the evidence you present for a position, which is generally some form of "stop worrying about the details, I'm right."

Though if your first post on this topic here was meant to contain humor (thus creating some preciously unknown relevance as to whether I am humorless) I have to suggest that the humor flaw lies not with me.

Finally, "inhumanly Vulcan" is "childishly redundant."

Little known fact: sometimes reading minds is unexpectedly boring. Though if I read minds in the inhumanly Vulcan way I'd have to touch your face, which I assume neither one if us wants.

Ghoulish Delight · 09-23-2011, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex

which I assume neither one if us wants.

You ARE a mind reader.

scaeagles · 09-23-2011, 05:49 PM

Just cause I feel like it....from an AP story on taxes.

Quote:

This year, households making more than $1 million will pay an average of 29.1 percent of their income in federal taxes, including income taxes and payroll taxes, according to the Tax Policy Center, a Washington think tank.

Lower-income households will pay less. For example, households making between $40,000 and $50,000 will pay an average of 12.5 percent of their income in federal taxes. Households making between $20,000 and $30,000 will pay 5.7 percent.

Someone earning 1 million will pay 291,000 in taxes.
Someone earning 20,000 will pay 1140 in taxes.
The person earning 1 mil earns 50x more than the person earing 20,000, and pays 255x the amount of federal taxes.

Someone earning 50,000 will pay 6250 in taxes.
The person earning 1 mil earns 20x more than the person earning 50,000, and pays 46.5x more in taxes.

Seems like we don't have a problem of the rich not paying their fair share.

And no, I am not one of those earning 1 mil. Not even close.

Alex · 09-23-2011, 06:14 PM

As always it depends on one's subjective definition of fair.

It could range from "everybody pays an equal percentage of federal receipts" to "everybody pays the same percentage of income" to "everybody pays the same percentage of total worth" to "everybody pays the same relative painfulness of loss."

All could legitimately be argued as "fair" and all result in vastly different tax structures.

Personally, on of my core starting points is that taking taxes from people who have nothing or just barely enough for self sufficiency is not going to meet my definition of fair.

Deep Thoughts From Alex While He Waits For Lani Outside The Downtown Disney LEGO Store

Ghoulish Delight · 09-23-2011, 08:10 PM

Do you have a link to that?

"29.1 percent of their income". Does that include capital gains, or just wage income subject to income tax?

And what about the people making between 50K and 1Million?

And what percentage of their income do they pay in sales tax?

What percentage of their income is used to pay for the bare necessities of survival?

scaeagles · 09-24-2011, 06:47 AM

Link to AP story

And of course everyone defines fair differently.

Ghoulish Delight · 09-24-2011, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Link to AP story

And of course everyone defines fair differently.

Quote:

The 10 percent of households with the highest incomes pay more than half of all federal taxes. They pay more than 70 percent of federal income taxes, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

So what?

scaeagles · 09-24-2011, 10:00 PM

Are we talking who pays what in terms of federal taxes or wealth distribution?

I just think that when a man with 50x more income than someone with 20k pays 255x more federal taxes it is reasonable to say that the person pays their fair share. No debunking (the numbers come from IRS data).

If you don't like the distribution of wealth in the country that's a different matter.

09-23-2011, 10:58 AM	#1
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	No, I get your overall point. I don't even disagree with it. That said, you're the one who said "A and B therefore C" where A is murky (in that I could pick a different set of equally true numbers that present a different picture of employment growth), B is subjective (in that you're just deciding on your own whether an 18% increase is "slight" and whether the baseline was a proper size and you've now kind of compromised yourself by clarifying that the 17% growth was not over 30 years but over two years), and C doesn't necessarily follow from A and B even if taken as true as you present them. I know you feel that your logic is irrelevant if your conclusion is satisfying (and so any push back is just "picking apart the details", I just disagree. Your conclusion is irrelevant, even if correct, if your logic is unsatisfying. YMMV.
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09-23-2011, 12:56 PM	#3
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	Just for the record, that conclusion (about my genetic origins) is not supported by the evidence you preceded it with. But no, I don't read minds. But I have watched you react over several years to anybody questioning the evidence you present for a position, which is generally some form of "stop worrying about the details, I'm right." Though if your first post on this topic here was meant to contain humor (thus creating some preciously unknown relevance as to whether I am humorless) I have to suggest that the humor flaw lies not with me. Finally, "inhumanly Vulcan" is "childishly redundant." Little known fact: sometimes reading minds is unexpectedly boring. Though if I read minds in the inhumanly Vulcan way I'd have to touch your face, which I assume neither one if us wants.
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09-23-2011, 06:14 PM	#6
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	As always it depends on one's subjective definition of fair. It could range from "everybody pays an equal percentage of federal receipts" to "everybody pays the same percentage of income" to "everybody pays the same percentage of total worth" to "everybody pays the same relative painfulness of loss." All could legitimately be argued as "fair" and all result in vastly different tax structures. Personally, on of my core starting points is that taking taxes from people who have nothing or just barely enough for self sufficiency is not going to meet my definition of fair. Deep Thoughts From Alex While He Waits For Lani Outside The Downtown Disney LEGO Store
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09-23-2011, 08:10 PM	#7
Ghoulish Delight I Floop the Pig Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Alternative Swankstyle Posts: 19,348	Do you have a link to that? "29.1 percent of their income". Does that include capital gains, or just wage income subject to income tax? And what about the people making between 50K and 1Million? And what percentage of their income do they pay in sales tax? What percentage of their income is used to pay for the bare necessities of survival? __________________ 'He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.' -TJ
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09-24-2011, 06:47 AM	#8
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	Link to AP story And of course everyone defines fair differently. Last edited by scaeagles : 09-24-2011 at 06:56 AM.
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09-24-2011, 10:00 PM	#10
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	Are we talking who pays what in terms of federal taxes or wealth distribution? I just think that when a man with 50x more income than someone with 20k pays 255x more federal taxes it is reasonable to say that the person pays their fair share. No debunking (the numbers come from IRS data). If you don't like the distribution of wealth in the country that's a different matter.
	Submit to Quotes