Ding Dong bin Laden is gone

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

The intelligence gathering that lead to the eventual discovery of Bin Laden's location began well before Obama took office, to presume that Bush's decisions had nothing to do with it is as inane as presuming that Obama's didn't, or that Clinton was "to blame" for 9/11 for "failing to capture Osama" before Bush. I have no problem with giving Bush credit for the role his orders to the intelligence community played in the long and difficult task.

I do not agree. Obama made the call, not Bush. Obama would have (rightly) take all the blame if something had gone wrong, and no one would have blamed Bush.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Where did I say Bush gets ALL the credit?

I stand by what I said. Giving no credit to Bush is as inane as giving no credit to Obama.

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Wow....we sure do have a different view of 1980's geopolitics. I, however, view mine as opinion, and you seem to view your opinion as fact. A stark difference.

Both of these issues are matter of opinion, I suppose, and we disagree.

It sure sounded like you were stating it as fact to me.

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Here's what I liken it to. The Berlin wall fell when GHWBush was President. Did he deserve THE credit? Not all, but some, and there was credit due the previous administration of Reagan and the policies thereof.

Communism was already on it's last legs when Reagan took office. The soviets simply could not compete with the western world. It would have collapsed regardless of who the president was.

[alphabassettgrrl]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I think there is WAY too much short term thinking in politics and the American public in general. Very little on a global scale is the result of the policies of one individual or one event. It is an eviolution of relations and policies and events over time, and FAR too often the blame is pointed at one man or one thing. It should be a view of the macro, not the micro.

I'm with you here. I think we get too caught up in simplifying things, so that we can get a handle on them, and forget that it's more complicated.

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Where did I say Bush gets ALL the credit?

I never said you did. I just don't think Bush deserves any of the credit if he wouldn't have gotten any of the blame if something went wrong.

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

I stand by what I said. Giving no credit to Bush is as inane as giving no credit to Obama.

And I stand by my opinion that it is inane to give Bush credit. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by JWBear

I never said you did. I just don't think Bush deserves any of the credit if he wouldn't have gotten any of the blame if something went wrong.

If what went wrong had nothing to do with him, then he wouldn't deserve any of the blame. If everything happened exactly the same, but Obama, 5 minutes before the operation, called Bin Laden on his satellite phone, then Obama would deserve 100% of the blame. Period. You are assuming symmetry in an equation where there is no symmetry.

If it can be shown that none of the information that was used to find Bin Laden came as a result of Bush's policies and decisions, that everything happened only as a result of Obama's actions, then he would deserve no credit. But considering that knowledge of the compound by the CIA happened in 2005, and information on the courier brothers that lead to that knowledge came before that, I have a hard time understanding how Obama would deserve 100% of the credit.

Yes, if you narrow everything down to JUST the act of making the final decision, Obama deserves 100% of the credit for that. But that is an absurd view of the situation that would also remove all credit from anyone else involved. The intelligence community, the Navy Seals, etc. Once you start properly crediting everyone involved in the entire, 10-year long process, it's ridiculous to say that Bush cannot be credited with helping set things in motion.

[innerSpaceman]

What does anyone make of the reported opportunities Bush had to capture or kill Osama, but neglected or purposefully failed to take?

Sorry for the polemic, but they are briefly detailed here for anyone not familiar. There was, of course, Tora Bora where we had him cornered under Bush, and the Taliban offer to hand him over, which Bush rejected.


Assuming the truth of those, I would not give Bush one iota of credit for Bin Laden's killing. I'm just not sure how black & white those events were. And personally, I'm not really interested in who gets credit or blame. The whole political spin is just absurd and beyond insulting.


My only concern for "using" this Bin Laden's death to further a cause is to promote ending the longest war in American history.


It seems to be pretty clear Bin Laden's main strategy was to bankrupt the superpowers by luring the stupid, blundering giants into wars in Afghanistan and bleed them dry as the sand and rock they foolishly fought for. Succeeded brilliantly with the Soviet Union. Not too shabby with the United States.

Can we stop now?

[Ghoulish Delight]

I have very little confidence that those incidents are true.

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

And personally, I'm not really interested in who gets credit or blame. The whole political spin is just absurd and beyond insulting.

Agreed. But to that end, if someone is going to respond to the political bullsht of not acknowledging Obama's role with political bullsht of not acknowledging Bush's role, I'm going to call it bullsht.

[Not Afraid]

Why is everyone acting as if things happen in a vacuum with only one person in it? This was a VERY LONG group effort with many people, of many political persuasions, taking part.

[Morrigoon]

Let's just go back to being glad he's gone. And now let's work on ending this stupid war.