Hypersensitivity...

[Strangler Lewis]

When I coached soccer or just taught stuff to my kids, my message was that you're going to have more fun trying to do something the right way than just screwing around. It's more fun running around and trying to kick the ball than standing around and letting your teammates take a beating. It's more fun trying to do the puzzle than throwing the pieces across the room. Etc.

I think you can have both versions of musical chairs (though I'm a Duck, Duck, Goose man myself). The "competitive" version is valuable because little kids--and a lot of big kids--lack a well developed sense that there is such a thing as the future, that you get to try again. These disappointments, whether it's losing at a game or letting the ice cream truck pass by, are good ways to instill the lesson that you can't have it your way all the time and that tomorrow is another day.

[Ghoulish Delight]

One further thought. I played competitive sports growing up. Not at a particularly high level, but I was always involved. Mostly soccer, and I played basketball and baseball for a few seasons. I wasn't very good at any of them, but I was motivated and always had fun.

My parents didn't laud me extravagantly when I won. They didn't chastise me when I lost. Most importantly, they didn't prevent me from doing either. I went out there, and I played a game. They'd ask if I had fun, they congratulate me if I won or if I scored a goal, they'd ask if I learned something and what I might do differently given the opportunity. And in the end, I learned that losing is not a big deal. It's part of the experience. It's what makes winning so great. And I'm better for it. It allows me to try things without fearing loss, because I've been there and know that life goes on.

[Not Afraid]

I'm glad I don't have kids.


I dislike greatly people who are competitive only for the sake of winning. There's just so much more to appreciate in life other than "winning". Winning has always seems so empty and unfulfilling on an event for me 90% or the time. Playing, however, is usually VERY satisfying.

[tracilicious]

Yeah, I grew up with competition as well. I enjoy board games and various other forms of competition, but I still remember how much musical chairs sucked. The competition of our youths and the competition of today seems completely different, though. Parents push their kids to be the best from an insanely young age. I just don't get it. I won't shield my kids from competition, but I see no reason to push them into it either.

I disagree pretty much completely with everything my parents did. I'm ok in spite of being raised by them, not because of it. I see this as a benefit in some ways, as it's a fresh start on thinking about ways I want to raise my kids. In general, I think you can make loads of mistakes and still have productive adults. I still have ideals though. There is an entire body of research to back up that competition has the opposite effect of what we desire in kids. I'll see if it's available online when I have more time tonight.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by tracilicious

Parents push their kids to be the best from an insanely young age. I just don't get it.

But that's what I'm talking about. It's not the competition, it's the parental attitude. And that's where this all started. Yes, I agree that pushing competition, and specifically pushing a "win, win, win!" attitude is bad. But I just don't believe that the remedy to that is to remove competition, or redefine competition to "everyone's a winner". I believe the remedy is to encourage personal accomplishment within the framwork of competition with winning and losing being merely part of a set of factors to guage progress and success. I don't suppose our ideal are as far apart as this discussion is making it seem. I don't plan on signing my proginy up for AYSO as soon as they squirt out. I just don't feel a need to put as much stock in actively avoiding competition as you appear to.

And for the record, I hated musical chairs growing up. It's a stupid game. But I think that's mostly because no one seemed to ever be able to agree on a decent set of rules (oh yeah, learning how rules can make order out of chaos, another good lesson to be learned from competition).

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis

Let's get down to cases here. Are we talking JW? Waldorf? Single mothers in housing projects?

If Waldorf, the Waldorf parents I know obsess, worry and fetishize their child's development more than any other parents I've met.

Lol. None of the above. I'd rather put my kids in soccer when they are six months old than hang out with JW parents, and I have a whole other set of issues with Waldorf philosophy (that probably only you and I would be interested in discussing, so I'll shut up about it).

I guess if I have to categorize my parenting friends the best I can do is this: Most of us have read a book called Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn, that stresses working with kids rather than doing to kids, and we practice it to the best of our ability. We are all committed to gentle discipline (which means teaching, not punishing) and in general we avoid praising (which probably sounds more hands off than it is - we'll say, "you did it!" rather than, "good job!"). Some of us will homeschool/unschool. I doubt any of our kids has ever had a pop tart. I guess you can just call it crunchy. Though I'm not sure how that is relevant to this discussion.

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis

I can't really say whether I agree with you without a sense of what kind of disappointments you expect your kids to be able to endure. Knowing a little something of your background, I am suspecting that they are fairly minimal. The sense I get from your post is not that the kids are learning to handle disappointment well; it's that they are learning that there is not much in this worldy world worth aspiring to or being excited about. (In the Enneagram, that's a type 5--the unenlightened Buddha. It's what I test as.)

I'm not sure how you would get that sense from my post. I expect my kids to be able to handle any disappointment that comes their way. Some will be small some will be large, but I also expect them to succeed in just about everything they do.

I find it ridiculous that you think they wouldn't get excited about anything. That's the whole point of this whole parenting system is so that kids retain their zeal for learning and their excitement about life. My three year old can tell you things about dinosaurs that I didn't even know. He drew the insides of his intestines yesterday. His penchant for geeking out about things is almost scary. I imagine that one day he will like something enough to want to compete. I just don't see the point of stinking musical chairs and setting kids up for disappointment. I'd rather give them the tools they need for success.

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

But that's what I'm talking about. It's not the competition, it's the parental attitude. And that's where this all started. Yes, I agree that pushing competition, and specifically pushing a "win, win, win!" attitude is bad. But I just don't believe that the remedy to that is to remove competition, or redefine competition to "everyone's a winner". I believe the remedy is to encourage personal accomplishment within the framwork of competition with winning and losing being merely part of a set of factors to guage progress and success. I don't suppose our ideal are as far apart as this discussion is making it seem. I don't plan on signing my proginy up for AYSO as soon as they squirt out. I just don't feel a need to put as much stock in actively avoiding competition as you appear to.

If a game is going on that he wants to participate in, then he's more than welcome to. I just don't see the point of setting them up for competition so early. But yes, having everyone win a game that clearly isn't designed for that is dumb. I think that kids are smart enough to know that. There are plenty of games where there is no need for everyone to be a winner or a loser. They are just games you play for fun.

[wendybeth]

I have a good friend who was raising her three kids in much the manner and philosophy that Traci is. It hasn't worked out as well as she thought. I'm not saying it won't for Traci- truth be told, it's very early in the game for her and her family. There are, as with any sort of parenting philosophy, so many variables that could upset the apple cart. I don't even pretend to have a plan, other than teaching my kid to treat people as she'd like to be treated, realise that everyone has strengths and weaknesses and just because one is better at something does not mean that they are superior beings. We engage in mild forms of competition, such as video or board games, but don't really play any sports except dance, which is not at all competitive at this point.

I despise overenthused sports parents but if they want to mess up their own kids so be it. I also don't think completely nixing competition is a good idea- just how the hell are the kids going to function in the real world? It's naive to expect the entire human race to just stop doing something so basic to our nature. Learning to temper it is fine, but isn't that what most people do as they grow? Anyway, I think all this non-competition stuff with kids older than pre-school age is asinine.

[tracilicious]

Originally Posted by wendybeth

I have a good friend who was raising her three kids in much the manner and philosophy that Traci is. It hasn't worked out as well as she thought. I'm not saying it won't for Traci- truth be told, it's very early in the game for her and her family. There are, as with any sort of parenting philosophy, so many variables that could upset the apple cart. I don't even pretend to have a plan, other than teaching my kid to treat people as she'd like to be treated, realise that everyone has strengths and weaknesses and just because one is better at something does not mean that they are superior beings. We engage in mild forms of competition, such as video or board games, but don't really play any sports except dance, which is not at all competitive at this point.

I could say the same about so many mainstream parents. I think the variables thing is the key. I really don't want to come off as sounding like I think I know everything about parenting. All I know is that as often as humanly possible I will work with my kids instead of doing something to them, and instead of punishing and rewarding I will teach. I'm not sure how that can go wrong.

[Not Afraid]

I was always placed in competitive situations as a child. It seems EVERYTHING I was involved with in some way was competitive - dance competitions, piano competitions, beauty pagents, casting calls, etc. I think one of the reasons I had such low self esteme when I was in my late teens up until about my early 30's was due to the "banging my head against the wall" competitions I was thrust into. It all seemed a losing battle for me and all it taught me was to hate the activity I was involved in.

I'm sure this is not the case of all children, but it sure did a hoot of damage to me as a child and took many years to un-do. I think it would've been different if I learned to love te activity first and the competitive part was secondary. It is something I had to learn for myself much later in life. I'm just glad I was able to learn it.

[Strangler Lewis]

My kids have never had a pop tart either. The only Barbie things that my daughter has received have come from others. Her favorite toy is her Anne Frank playhouse.* Watch Anne put her finger to her lips and go "Ssh."

More later. Back to work.



*Bergen Belsen and typhus sold separately.