Yes, we can.

[Alex]

Yes, it would be stupid to say. I said it would be stupid to say.

Doesn't make what I said untrue. It is not equating all gun ownership and all religion with gang culture, just a form of them. And to say that different things share a common impetus is not, as you so deviously try to do, to say that all outcomes of a common source are equally good or bad. There is nothing inherently harmful in gun ownership and religion. But I do think that many people, when they aren't given a way to fulfill themselves begin to use external indicators such as group participations to build themselves up and exclude others. This is harmful to community and national cohesion.

I know lots of people who are religious for what I think are bad reasons -- primarily it gives them a way to feel superior to those who aren't a member of the religion. They may have a lot of problems by at least they had the sense to find the right god.

I know, it is a silly thought, that we would actually elect a person to an office that is capable of recognizing (and even worse, acknowledging) that bad things can sometimes do good things, or that good things can be used in bad ways. Better that good things be entirely good and bad things be entirely bad. That way we know who to hate, who to love, and who can just be ignored.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by Alex

There is nothing inherently harmful in gun ownership and religion. But I do think that many people, when they aren't given a way to fulfill themselves begin to use external indicators such as group participations to build themselves up and exclude others. This is harmful to community and national cohesion.

If that is the end game of such participation, being the exclusion of others, then I can see that as being harmful to community. However, are gun owners gun owners so that they can feel superior to others? I guess it could be, but I don't see it that way. Are religious people religious so that they can feel superior? More often than I would like, indeed, but calling a religion exclusionary is a fine line - if one wishes to subscribe to the tenets of a religion that person is not often excluded from it.

There may be truth in what he said as you have explained it Alex, but someone who is as eloquent as he is needs to be more careful about soundind elitist. It may not bother you, but most of America is bothered by it, which is why he is and has been taking heat for it.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

If that is the end game of such participation, being the exclusion of others, then I can see that as being harmful to community. However, are gun owners gun owners so that they can feel superior to others? I guess it could be, but I don't see it that way. Are religious people religious so that they can feel superior? More often than I would like, indeed, but calling a religion exclusionary is a fine line - if one wishes to subscribe to the tenets of a religion that person is not often excluded from it.

He was specifically talking about a subset of people who, due to economic pressure, turn to those things. It doesn't even take a reinterpretation of what he said to see that he was not referring to ALL gun owners or ALL religious people.

There may be truth in what he said as you have explained it Alex, but someone who is as eloquent as he is needs to be more careful about soundind elitist. It may not bother you, but most of America is bothered by it, which is why he is and has been taking heat for it.

This is true, and he is in the delicate position that since he IS usually so eloquent, the slightest slip up is going to be magnified. But at least this slip up is the result of being a little too honest and just not explaining it well rather than, say, certain other people who "misspeak" by telling flat out lies and continuing to lie about it after being caught lying.

[innerSpaceman]

Must.refrain.from.mojoing.Alex.

[Sub la Goon]

I have been looking for a way to properly explain or articulate Obabma's (very correct IMO) statements about bitterness.

I think Alex has hit it right on the head.



Also, I find it obnoxiously offensive for either Hillary or McCain to use the word "elitist" against anyone else. The hyprocrisy of those 2 never ends.

[JWBear]

I don't think he misspoke at all. He told the truth, and there are few things the American people hate more than being told truths they do not want to deal with.

[wendybeth]

Originally Posted by JWBear

I don't think he misspoke at all. He told the truth, and there are few things the American people hate more than being told truths they do not want to deal with.

I agree. I think if the economy keeps getting worse, which it will, more and more people will realize what he meant. I live in a town that is full of the people he describes and many of them seem driven by bitterness and fear. We have a high labor/low income scenario going on here, and soon the rest of the country will as well. Anyone else remember the late Seventies, early Eighties? This is going to be worse, and probably already is.

[CoasterMatt]

If Hillary does that condescending head nod one more time.... GRRR

Talk to voters as grownups, not freakin' preschoolers.

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by CoasterMatt

If Hillary does that condescending head nod one more time.... GRRR

Talk to voters as grownups, not freakin' preschoolers.

I loved how she got booed and heckled by the teamsters.

[JWBear]

I love this quote I just read online

Oh yes, Obama made a terrible mistake. He told the truth... You'll never catch her (Hillary) making a mistake like that..

So true!