Paul Tibbets dies at 92

BarTopDancer · 11-01-2007, 10:21 AM

Quote:

"I'm not proud that I killed 80,000 people, but I'm proud that I was able to start with nothing, plan it and have it work as perfectly as it did," he said in a 1975 interview.
"You've got to take stock and assess the situation at that time. We were at war. ... You use anything at your disposal."

He added: "I sleep clearly every night."

History is ugly - but without studying it we are bound to repeat it.

blueerica · 11-01-2007, 10:40 AM

You know, coming from a family that was directly affected by this - I think my grandma's pretty okay with things. I had family on both sides of that war, both in the Pacific arena. Before they died, they all seemed pretty okay with things.

Of course he has to sleep clearly every night - it was what it was, and it is now a part of the past. Yes, something to study and learn from. Right or wrong, war is never easy, never something to be taken lightly, but it's always something to be learned from and moved forward from.

Nice link, BTD, I probably wouldn't have noticed otherwise.

Gemini Cricket · 11-01-2007, 10:45 AM

I know I'm having an all around glum kinda day, but this part hit me hard:

Quote:

At least 70,000 people died instantly and countless others were injured. Two-thirds of the Japanese city of Hiroshima was demolished.
On Aug. 9, the U.S. dropped a second nuclear bomb on the city of Nagasaki, killing an estimated 40,000 people. A day later, Japan surrendered.

There are times when I feel like I don't belong in this world and that none of it makes sense. And when I read that, it confirms my feeling.
Wow.

Snowflake · 11-01-2007, 10:56 AM

My dad fought in the Pacific, though he did not fight as far as I know it, he repaired and serviced the planes on an aircraft carrier. It was a different time and I think Tibbetts voiced it well, they did what they had to do at the time. As horrible as it was and still is, how many lives, Japanese and American were saved by the bombings in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I've long wanted to go to the peace memorial in Hiroshima and offer up my prayers for those who died, the women, the children, the innocent people.

Capt Jack · 11-01-2007, 11:15 AM

my dad was 19 at his first duty station. Pearl Harbor, December 1941. He'd been there two weeks at the time of the attack. USS Raleigh took at least one torpedo but didnt sink.
I've tried a zillion times to imagine such an event through the eyes of a 19 year old. I've also tried to imagine myself in Gen Tibbets position more than once. Again, nearly impossible to imagine being in such a position in world events.
Yeah. It was a different time

R.I.P. General Tibbets

DreadPirateRoberts · 11-01-2007, 11:24 AM

It was a different time. The casualty estimate in US lives was somewhere between 500,000 and 1,000,000 lives to invade Japan.

I was in kindergarten in 1970, and I remember some researchers coming into our classroom, and they tried to explain to us that that Truman had a difficult choice to make. Do you take X amount of Japanese lives? or Y amount of American lives. Does the decision change if X is > or < Y? What if some are your relatives? Which do you choose?

Apparently it made an impression on me, as I remember it to this day.

I had a great uncle who was in both Iwo Jima and Okinawa, and I'm guessing if they had invaded Japan, he would have been one of the 500,000 to 1,000,000.

Alex · 11-01-2007, 11:32 AM

The debate about the morality of dropping the bombs, for me, doesn't really have anything to do with the number of people killed. It has to do with the nature of the people killed.

Total war is, in my opinion, immoral. Which means that killing 40,000 foreign civilians to prevent the deaths of 100,000 American soldiers is unacceptable. Using the a bombs was not immoral, the targets were. But killing 1 million Japanese soldiers to prevent the death of 100,000 American soldiers would be palatable.

This is not, of course, to say that the Japanese were any more "clean" in their treatment and respect of noncombattants. But two wrongs, so they say, don't make a right.

But that is an easy position to take when I'm not the one sending those 100,000 American soldiers into battle.

And even if the act were right, I don't know that being able to sleep soundly after killing that many people is necessarily a good thing. Being able to live with it is fine but to not be bothered by it?

Gemini Cricket · 11-01-2007, 12:32 PM

I think that that's what bothered me a great deal was the civilian death toll.
And the whole sleeping soundly thing kinda bugged me too. I mean, it implies no remorse.

Gemini Cricket · 11-01-2007, 12:54 PM

And this is going to sound funny but it's not meant to be.
I killed a cricket (yes, I know... the irony!) the other day because it was loud and annoying and drowning out my TV set. I tried to catch it but it was underneath my water heater... so I just sprayed the sh!t out of the area and it died. I felt really bad about it.
Ask iSm and zappp. I felt so guilty afterwards.
I can't imagine what I would have felt if I was Tibbets.

Strangler Lewis · 11-01-2007, 01:02 PM

Easy to feel bad about one dead cricket. Harder to get one's mind around tens of thousands of civilians. It's also probably impossible to attain a nuanced peace of mind by parsing out the people that it was appropriate to nuke from those that it wasn't. Either you go mad or you put it out of your mind.

My dad was part of a flamethrower unit on "anything that moved" duty around the caves of Okinawa. He didn't care for it, and would occasionally talk about it, but this wasn't tens of thousands people.

11-01-2007, 10:40 AM	#2
blueerica Nueve Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,497	You know, coming from a family that was directly affected by this - I think my grandma's pretty okay with things. I had family on both sides of that war, both in the Pacific arena. Before they died, they all seemed pretty okay with things. Of course he has to sleep clearly every night - it was what it was, and it is now a part of the past. Yes, something to study and learn from. Right or wrong, war is never easy, never something to be taken lightly, but it's always something to be learned from and moved forward from. Nice link, BTD, I probably wouldn't have noticed otherwise. __________________ Tomorrow is the day for you and me
	Submit to Quotes

11-01-2007, 10:56 AM	#4
Snowflake lost in the fog Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: San Francisco Posts: 7,831	My dad fought in the Pacific, though he did not fight as far as I know it, he repaired and serviced the planes on an aircraft carrier. It was a different time and I think Tibbetts voiced it well, they did what they had to do at the time. As horrible as it was and still is, how many lives, Japanese and American were saved by the bombings in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I've long wanted to go to the peace memorial in Hiroshima and offer up my prayers for those who died, the women, the children, the innocent people. __________________ Be yourself; everyone else is already taken. - Oscar Wilde
	Submit to Quotes

11-01-2007, 11:15 AM	#5
Capt Jack check your head Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 4,174	my dad was 19 at his first duty station. Pearl Harbor, December 1941. He'd been there two weeks at the time of the attack. USS Raleigh took at least one torpedo but didnt sink. I've tried a zillion times to imagine such an event through the eyes of a 19 year old. I've also tried to imagine myself in Gen Tibbets position more than once. Again, nearly impossible to imagine being in such a position in world events. Yeah. It was a different time R.I.P. General Tibbets __________________ a clear conscience is a sure sign of a fuzzy memory
	Submit to Quotes

11-01-2007, 11:24 AM	#6
DreadPirateRoberts Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,483	It was a different time. The casualty estimate in US lives was somewhere between 500,000 and 1,000,000 lives to invade Japan. I was in kindergarten in 1970, and I remember some researchers coming into our classroom, and they tried to explain to us that that Truman had a difficult choice to make. Do you take X amount of Japanese lives? or Y amount of American lives. Does the decision change if X is > or < Y? What if some are your relatives? Which do you choose? Apparently it made an impression on me, as I remember it to this day. I had a great uncle who was in both Iwo Jima and Okinawa, and I'm guessing if they had invaded Japan, he would have been one of the 500,000 to 1,000,000.
	Submit to Quotes

11-01-2007, 11:32 AM	#7
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	The debate about the morality of dropping the bombs, for me, doesn't really have anything to do with the number of people killed. It has to do with the nature of the people killed. Total war is, in my opinion, immoral. Which means that killing 40,000 foreign civilians to prevent the deaths of 100,000 American soldiers is unacceptable. Using the a bombs was not immoral, the targets were. But killing 1 million Japanese soldiers to prevent the death of 100,000 American soldiers would be palatable. This is not, of course, to say that the Japanese were any more "clean" in their treatment and respect of noncombattants. But two wrongs, so they say, don't make a right. But that is an easy position to take when I'm not the one sending those 100,000 American soldiers into battle. And even if the act were right, I don't know that being able to sleep soundly after killing that many people is necessarily a good thing. Being able to live with it is fine but to not be bothered by it?
	Submit to Quotes

11-01-2007, 12:32 PM	#8
Gemini Cricket ... Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 13,244	I think that that's what bothered me a great deal was the civilian death toll. And the whole sleeping soundly thing kinda bugged me too. I mean, it implies no remorse.
	Submit to Quotes

11-01-2007, 12:54 PM	#9
Gemini Cricket ... Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 13,244	And this is going to sound funny but it's not meant to be. I killed a cricket (yes, I know... the irony!) the other day because it was loud and annoying and drowning out my TV set. I tried to catch it but it was underneath my water heater... so I just sprayed the sh!t out of the area and it died. I felt really bad about it. Ask iSm and zappp. I felt so guilty afterwards. I can't imagine what I would have felt if I was Tibbets.
	Submit to Quotes

11-01-2007, 01:02 PM	#10
Strangler Lewis Doing The Job Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: In a state Posts: 3,956	Easy to feel bad about one dead cricket. Harder to get one's mind around tens of thousands of civilians. It's also probably impossible to attain a nuanced peace of mind by parsing out the people that it was appropriate to nuke from those that it wasn't. Either you go mad or you put it out of your mind. My dad was part of a flamethrower unit on "anything that moved" duty around the caves of Okinawa. He didn't care for it, and would occasionally talk about it, but this wasn't tens of thousands people. __________________ Live now-pay later. Diner's Club!
	Submit to Quotes