A Prop 8 challenge for swankers [Archive] - Page 3

€uroMeinke

11-05-2008, 09:22 PM

Um, except that the young grow old.

Young people do not automatically retain their optimism, peacefulness, love and good-heartedness. It evaporates in all too many people.

If that weren't the sad truth, the 80's would have been utopia when all the wonderful youth of the 60's grew to be the core of society. It didn't happen that way then, and it won't now.

I don't know about that - the idealism of the 60s did make its way into social changes. My workplace is certainly a more diverse place now than it was then. I don't think people become more bigoted as the age.

I think what's happening now is gay rights is now entering the consciousness as women and minority rights did in the 60s and the inherited bigotry of their parents are at odds with their own experience of the world.

Isaac

11-05-2008, 09:38 PM

I don't know about that - the idealism of the 60s did make its way into social changes. My workplace is certainly a more diverse place now than it was then. I don't think people become more bigoted as the age.

I think what's happening now is gay rights is now entering the consciousness as women and minority rights did in the 60s and the inherited bigotry of their parents are at odds with their own experience of the world.
Totally.

To me, this is the next big movement for equal rights.

Go back 50 years, there was a big movement for equal rights for minorities (segregated restrooms, ban on interracial marriage). Fifty years before that, women couldn't vote. Another Fifty years back....slavery.

Not Afraid

11-05-2008, 10:02 PM

The main thing that I want to get across to people who voted Yes on 8 is that bigotry and hatred are WRONG and will not be accepted in our society. It took a while for ANY equal rights issue to become a standard. It will take time, but it WILL happen.

An interesting theory I heard today about why 8 won. The voter turnout this election was HUGE - especially among the Black and Latino voters who wanted Obama to be their next president. Many of these people are not usual voters. Black and Latinos also tend to be god-fearing religious people - Catholic, Baptist, etc. The theory was that if Obma wasn't an option for President, mny of these people wouldn't have voted and 8 would have been a firm No.

I that is true, then I think that comparisons to the Civil Rights Movement, to segregation, to hate crimes against blacks, and to other nasty wrongs in America's past should be played up. Not many in today's world would dare to be openly racist against a black person or even suggest that their rights should be any different thn anyone else. I think the parrallel should be drawn and emphasized and maybe there will be more understanding.

alphabassettgrrl

11-05-2008, 10:43 PM

I think the churches get around the "can't be in politics" thing by creating a separate organization to lobby for them, and which recieves donations in order to be politically active.

I was sad to see the list of 8 supporters here in Ventura county. ::sigh:: Including Lassen's health food store. Both Ventura and Camarillo locations. Pooey.

Not Afraid

11-05-2008, 10:45 PM

This was written by an attorney on another board I post on. She was responding to the suggestion that this will go to the supreme court. I thought it was an excellent dissemination of the challenges we face in the future.

I wouldn't hold my breath. It took the strength and unity of the Thurgood Marshall Supreme Court era to strike down "separate but equal." We have never, and may never again, have that type of idelogical makeup in the Supreme Court.

In order for the Supreme Court to strike down the California Constitutional amendment, the Court would have to hold that, as a matter of federal law, under the U.S. Constitution, gays have equal rights, including the right to marry and adopt children. You are simply not going to get that type of ruling before the current Supreme Court justices.

If a lawsuit were brought today trying to challenge Prop 8 before the U.S. Supreme Court, I'd bet your chances are better than even that these 9 justices would uphold Proposition 8 under a 5-4 or 6-3 split decision.

Even with the Obama win and even if 2 Supreme Court justices retire and he gets to appoint 2 liberal justices, that really only gets us back to the current balance because the 2 justices most likely to retire are our most liberal justices. So you get back only to the balance we have today.

Now, there will be lawsuits, but I don't know how successful they will be. One could argue that you can't amend the Constitution to take away a fundamental right. However, there is nothing in the Constitution guaranteeing the right of gays to marry. So the California Supreme Court would be forced to weigh an implied right under the equal protection language against an express Constitutional provision banning gay marriage. That's a reach even for a highly liberal CA Supreme Court.

One could argue that Proposition 8 was really a Constitutional revision and not an amendment. Under the CA Constitution, you can amend the Constitution through a voter initiative passed by a simple majority, like we did with Proposition 8. However, in order to revise the Constitution, you need a 2/3 vote of the legislature during a constitutional convention. I believe a lawsuit on this issue was filed well before yesterday's election. That's also a tough one because there is very little guidance in the CA Constitution or in case law as to what constitutes an amendment versus a revision.

I wonder if the California people understand what they just did last night.

On the upside, however, I believe that the 19,000 or so same-sex marriages that took place between May and yesterday are valid and will continue to be recognized as legal, valid, and enforceable in California. You cannot apply Prop 8 retroactively, as that would be an ex post facto application of law and violative of Article 1, section 10 of the U.S. Constitution.

Gemini Cricket

11-05-2008, 11:20 PM

Well, I just got back from the Prop 8 protest rally. It was amazing. Huge crowd. I was there with Cherny, iSm, LSPE, Tom, Jonathan and Gn2Dlnd. I had a great time. I vented some aggression, felt a sense of community and commonality with a bunch of like-minded folk and had a milkshake.

The highlight of the evening was taking part in blocking the traffic going down Santa Monica Blvd. We were at the SM Blvd and San Vicente intersection and stood there with signs chanting "Equal Rights" and "No on Hate, No on Eight". It was amazing. Civil disobedience. Love it. I love seeing people voice themselves and protest. I love my country.

The best part was that the mayor of WeHo was there so no one got busted. Nice!

I'll let the others talk about their signs. I loved them!

Thanks to all who showed up and protested. It was truly a wonderful night!

:)

There is another rally tomorrow at 2pm at the LDS Temple on Santa Monica Blvd. I wish I could go, but I have to work.

innerSpaceman

11-05-2008, 11:30 PM

An interesting theory I heard today about why 8 won. The voter turnout this election was HUGE - especially among the Black and Latino voters who wanted Obama to be their next president. Black and Latinos also tend to be god-fearing religious people - Catholic, Baptist, etc.

I understand with my head that some oppressed minority groups empathize with different oppressed minorities ... while other oppressed groups like to pass on the hatred, loathing, humiliation and degradation down the line to the next oppressed minority lower on the sub-human food chain. Generally speaking, I've understood blacks to be in the latter category ... and generally speaking, I pity them for that.

But in my heart ... the thought of black folk going into the voting booth yesterday and, with elation, voting for the first black president ever - emblematic of a high point in their struggle for civil rights - - and within seconds - also casting their vote to TAKE AWAY the civil rights of another oppressed minority group that they have the balls to think of us inhuman and substandard - - in my heart, I cannot abide that.

It makes me ill. I want to puke.

An interesting thing I found out today is that SEVENTY PERCENT of black voters voted FOR PROP H8.

Um, pardon me, but FVCK THOSE NIKKERS! I'm really pissed. They disgust me.

:mad:

innerSpaceman

11-05-2008, 11:33 PM

Oh, anyway ... the rally was great.

Heheh, maybe I got a little riled up.

Tomorrow at 2 - - Spraying caffeinated coca-cola on the Mormon Temple Lawn!!

CoasterMatt

11-05-2008, 11:39 PM

Tomorrow at 2 - - Spraying caffeinated coca-cola on the Mormon Temple Lawn!!
Before or after drinking it? :evil:

innerSpaceman

11-05-2008, 11:42 PM

I guess just before.

Because if I have to pull out my dick near the Mormon Temple Lawn to protest their stance on gay marriage, I'm gonna wanna do something else with it besides peeing.

JWBear

11-05-2008, 11:44 PM

This was written by an attorney on another board I post on. She was responding to the suggestion that this will go to the supreme court. I thought it was an excellent dissemination of the challenges we face in the future.

That pisses me off. I haven't been pissed until now because I had assumed it would be easily overturned by the courts - a no brainer. How in bloody hell could any court (in this day and age) uphold discrimination?!

NA, I really hope she is wrong. I have to. Because if I allow myself to believe what she wrote, I will become angry - so angry I could become physically violent. That is a place I do not want to go. Ever.

I'm very depressed now.

CoasterMatt

11-05-2008, 11:47 PM

My father in law voted no on 8 - he's Catholic, but he voted for his fellow Americans, not for the church.

I can't wait to hear him talk about this topic again (as GC can attest, he's quite the talker).

innerSpaceman

11-05-2008, 11:52 PM

I think that lawyer is being awful pessimistic.

The matter is going to go before the very court that said Marriage Rights are a fundamental constitution right. Case law or no, I don't think they'll have much problem determining the vote was an improper revision of the Constitution.

Furthermore, liberal court or no .... courts don't like their jurisdiction being undermined, and this court won't take kindly to this attempted end-run around their historic civil rights ruling.

There may not be guiding precedent, but the California Supreme Court has every motivation and reason to find some way find Proposition 8 a revision and not an amendment ... and thus invalidate it.

This would NOT be a major victory to me. This was much more important than gay marriage rights in California. Just as America once was to the world, California is a beacon of progress and liberty to the rest of the nation. Even while they mock us, they always end up following our lead toward a more enlightened future.

But gay rights by judicial fiat is a far cry from gay rights by the will of the voters. Even if those rights are reaffirmed by the court, it's not the kind of fire that will spread throughout the country.

A great opportunity has been lost.

There were no plans of action voiced at tonight's rally, to the great disappointment of many. I happen to think Goonie's plan to start straight away on a countervailing ballot initiative is the way to go. It shouldn't be too hard to get the necessary signatures to put this on the ballot in 2 years if we strike while the iron is hot.

Morrigoon

11-06-2008, 12:07 AM

Does anyone know the process for filing it?

innerSpaceman

11-06-2008, 12:22 AM

No clue on this end.

Wish I'd had a camera tonight, there were some great signs.

A couple were about Separate Drinking Fountains for Gays ... one with great illustrations.

A really cute one with a picture of Sesame Street's Bert and Ernie emblazoned with the banner "Gay Love."

I think my fave was "My Pedophile Priest Supports Traditional Marriage."

Thanks to Ghoulish Delight, the one I carried - "What Does My Marriage Have To Do With Yours?" was a big hit ... but I have to wonder if it didn't make one too many cute single gay guy think I was married. Uh-oh.

I think I had the most fun in the first hour when we were all standing halfway in the street on all four corners of the Santa Monica / San Vicente intersection, waving hundreds of signs and chanting cool slogans ... and getting fantastic honk support from passing cars and busses. It was really high energy, fun and awesome.

After a while though, the crowd ended up taking over the entire intersection and stopping traffic on Santa Monica Boulevard ... which was kinda fun for a moment ... but stopped all the fun traffic flow, and undoubtedly turned driver support to driver upset.

Afterwards, we all wandered down San Vicente to the main program and listened to some inspiring and some not-so-inspiring speakers/

I got the feeling they were trying mostly to molify the crowd. And I didn't feel like thanking all the people for their hard work in a failure political campaign. And I didn't much feel like hearing this was just another step in the long march toward civil rights ... even though of course that's what it is.

But it was certainly nice to be among the like-minded crowd, at once warm-hearted and passionate, kind and angry. Very specially nice to be among some of my subscriber friends, and so touching to have Heidi and Tom there to lend their wonderful support. I am so moved.

Thank you all for you kind and wonderful support on this important human rights issue. The LoT of You are a Lot of Good.

Gn2Dlnd

11-06-2008, 03:07 AM

Um, pardon me, but FVCK THOSE NIKKERS! I'm really pissed. They disgust me.

I have to remember that you say shiat like this when I see you in person. WTF is wrong with you?

Done. With. You.

Strangler Lewis

11-06-2008, 06:20 AM

Well, the lawyer was wrong because Thurgood Marshall wasn't on the Supreme Court that eliminated separate but equal. He litigated those cases.

I don't think it's an ex post facto law any more than the Defense of Marriage Act was. It doesn't punish. More to the point, it tells the government how to act going forward. Jerry Brown has said that he will defend the marriages already enacted, and he will defend the law as well. If he can pull off this trick, then I suppose married gay couples could go to Massachusetts or some other friendly place and not have to get married again to be considered married.

As to black support for Proposition 8, why should we be surprised? Pick your oppressed group. The experience of racism has never automatically caused sweeping empathy for other cultural groups that experienced racism, nor has it caused groups to wake up and challenge the sexism in their own cultures.

SacTown Chronic

11-06-2008, 07:19 AM

Blacks on the whole seem to be more religious than whites in this country. And why not? God's certainly earned their loyalty, you ask me. And yes, generally speaking, they are over-the-top homophobes. When pressed about the homosexuality thing, they use words like 'faith' and 'sin'.

I've been doing a slow burn on this Prop 8 crap. Thinking about what it means...to the Gay and to the rest of us. And I've reached a conclusion:

Fvck them. Fvck every one that would lift a finger to deny rights. Fvck every white, black, and green "Christian" who insists on bossing me around with their bible. Fvck every single one of them who had their child out in the rain, waving signs at passing motorists. These people wouldn't understand compassion and grace even if they were fvcked in the earhole with their beloved Bible by Jesus Christ himself.

Yeah, fvck them.

Moonliner

11-06-2008, 07:42 AM

Wish I'd had a camera tonight, there were some great signs.

The protest made the news scroller on Good Morning America today.

~MS~

11-06-2008, 08:14 AM

Can I just say how proud I am that while it sucks major arse that 8 passed, my little no name county said NO to 8 and as of this morning is the ONLY county that will issue same sex marriage licenses until orders from the state to cease are issued. Our county clerk did admit that there might be a question on the validity of the marriages performed today but that until he was DIRECTED by the state to cease and desist he would issue licenses to any who applied. It doesn't help the over all situation but it does make me feel that our efforts to say No to 8 were successful locally if not statewide.

innerSpaceman

11-06-2008, 08:28 AM

WTF is wrong with you?

I'm angry, that's what's wrong with me.

Don't tell me that wouldn't have been a Mormon epithet on your roomie's sign last night if there was such a thing for the Mormons.

There was a lot of anger last night, and just like I told that woman who got pissed at Cherny's sign ... the hurt is fresh and the anger will fade. It's inappropriate, and I know that ... yet I feel it right now. Very strongly last night. 70%. Fvcking hater hypocrits.

Yeah, those blacks who voted Yes suck. I know 30% of them do not.

Those Mormons who voted Yes suck, and I know perhaps 3% of them do not.

Broad brush? Yep. Nasty names? Yeah, faggot, you got a problem wit dat?

Kevy Baby

11-06-2008, 09:15 AM

Um, pardon me, but FVCK THOSE NIKKERS! I'm really pissed. They disgust me.I don't care how pissed you are Steve. This line is inexcusable. Fvck off Steve.

Betty

11-06-2008, 09:35 AM

I don't care how pissed you are Steve. This line is inexcusable. Fvck off Steve.

I had to give him my first negative mojo ever for that one.

Dude - I know you're pissed but come on now. :rolleyes: 2 wrongs don't make a right and all that.

innerSpaceman

11-06-2008, 09:44 AM

Yeah, yeah, i know.

Eye for an eye and we're all blind.

I was pretty blind with rage. But, yeah, there's no excuse.

Heheh, I won't pancake it. I said it. I felt it. I regret it.

Motorboat Cruiser

11-06-2008, 09:50 AM

I appreciate that you regret saying it. Still, I have to voice my public opinion that it was way out of line.

Gemini Cricket

11-06-2008, 10:02 AM

I have so much to say this morning.

But here's the email I just got:

There is a press conference and protest in front of the Mormon Church on Santa Monica just a few block from the 405 today at 2pm - I hope you will all join me there. Forward this information to everyone you know!

Sincerely,
Brandon Brawner
Board Member | Equality California
Voice:323-960-0830 | Fax:323-960-0840 | Cell: 310-497-6522
Email: brandonbrawner@eqca.org | Web: www.eqca.org (http://www.eqca.org/)

Strangler Lewis

11-06-2008, 10:30 AM

I think picketing the Mormons is the wrong strategy. Rather than picket, gay people should take their disposable income and join the Mormon church. That would be a lot of tithes. Remember, when Utah wanted statehood, the grand poobah had a revelation that polygamy was wrong. It could happen again. Hell, if David Geffen signed on, they'd probably let him double as a Jew so long as he gave ten percent.

Gn2Dlnd

11-06-2008, 10:37 AM

The actual intersection of the Mormon Temple is at Overland and Santa Monica, West of Beverly Glen, East of the 405.

Steve, you need to edit the offending line from your post. I don't really care if you feel justified in your anger or not. Fix it. We've had this nonsense from you before.

How do you know that I haven't had a serious talk with my roommate about some of the stronger things he's said? Pull your head out of your self-obsessed little ass and listen to me, with the exception of "faggot," there is no word or epithet that can be hurled at a white person that has anything like the hatred of the word you used.

Snowflake

11-06-2008, 10:48 AM

A friend just sent me the following. I do not know the legal ramifications of this, if there are any.

If you're angry that a church can meddle with another state's political statutes, here's something that you can do.

To report the LDS Church to the IRS, simply take 5 minutes to print these articles out and any others you can find:

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_10839546

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_10842051

Then print and fill out http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f3949a.pdf

List the taxpayer as:

Thomas S. Monson, et al
50 East North Temple
Salt Lake City, Utah 84150

List his occupation as President and the business as the ridiculously full name of the church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) at the same address.

Check the boxes for False Exemption and Public/Political Corruption.

Then in the Comments section demand that the LDS Church be fined and their tax-exempt status revoked for repeated and blatant violations of the IRS's separate of church and state rules, and for conspiring to interfere with a state's political process.

Check Yes under "Are books/records available?" and write in "campaign finance records."

You don't have to provide any of your own personal info. Mail the form and the printed articles to:

Internal Revenue Service
Fresno, CA 93888

innerSpaceman

11-06-2008, 11:03 AM

Steve, you need to edit the offending line from your post. I don't really care if you feel justified in your anger or not. Fix it.
I'd love to, but that's not within my power. This is RICH coming from you. When I edited my offensive line in the past ... and did it with a joke ... you had a hissy fit and demanded that I be fired as a moderator.

So I was ... and now don't have the ability to edit my posts hours later.

Please feel free to ask a mod to edit it. I will support that request.

...with the exception of "faggot," there is no word or epithet that can be hurled at a white person that has anything like the hatred of the word you used.

Well, we happen to disagree. I guess I have to go with societal norms, but I happen to personally and absolutely truly feel that blacks have been enormously successful at NULLIFYING the evil power of the "N" word by using it affectionately among themselves ... showing us all that a word is just a word, and the meaning and power is what we make of it.

I think it's absurd that they have achieved this fantastic thing with the "N" word ... but only blacks can utter it.

I constantly use FAGGOT for the same reason. Affectionately among my gay friends. I hope some day that everyone can use the formerly-disgusting word because we gays will have made it HARMLESS. And until everyone can use it, and not just gays, we have not achieved that goal.

I use the "N" word as my inspiration. Yeah, I still won't say it. I regret using it in my post. But I look forward to the day when the quest for it to lose all derogatory power will have been achieved, and that day won't come till it's usuable by whites as well as blacks, and is not a filtered word here on the LoT.

Still .... it was inappropriate to use it. My disgust for black people who voted for Obama with one hand while taking away my civil rights with the other remains. But just as it was not right for Latinos to spit on gays and call them faggot on Election Day ... and it was not right for me to use the "N" word in my ranting post.

I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Feel free to ask a mod to delete it.

Alex

11-06-2008, 11:12 AM

But once that day is achieved you won't feel any desire to use it where you did. You weren't using it to dilute its harming impact, you were using it to exploit it.

So I'm not sure what argument you are making there. "I was angry so lashed out to hurt by using the word but the word shouldn't hurt if we use it enough" lacks a certain coherence.

But regardless, I've argue for leaving what has been said where it has been said.

Gemini Cricket

11-06-2008, 11:19 AM

I was really happy I went to the protest last night. It helped to know that I was not alone in my disgust, anger and grief. Although I thought there was a lack of a "here's where we go from here" plan, I was glad to hear that the people leading the No on 8 campaign were just as unhappy as I was.

Now here's where it gets sticky. The people leading the rally called the Mormon Church out for funding the Yes on 8 campaign. And I am glad they did. Someone needed to do it. I am personally tired of being beaten down by religious groups who kick me in the face and then when there's a retaliation they hide and say 'don't hit me back, I'm a religion'. They can't come out and act like a PAC and then when there is resistance they act like a harmless church. They can not have it both ways.

I'm all for the high road. But it also bugs me when people defend close-minded Christians and say 'I'm a Christian, I'm offended by what you said'. Uh, yeah. If you're not defending the gay community when your church is preaching hate, then spare me your 'hurt feelings'.

And another thing. This is going to sound rough. I absolutely adore my friends and family members who spoke out against Prop 8. I appreciate the anger and grief you feel from the day Prop 8 came on the ballot to today. But part of me is frustrated because I have been feeling that same anger and grief now everyday for the past 10 years that I have been a gay activist and everyday since I came out of the closet 15 years ago. So I say to you, 'Welcome to the club. You should be hurt and angry. Thank you for joining in. Don't just tell me about how you're mad, show me that you're going to do something about it. We need your help.'

I want to share in Obama's win. I am very happy for him and our country. But it's hard to when rights were stripped from me. It's hard to have that hope when someone just kicked me in the teeth. There is an irony that some of the people who voted for Obama in the name of racial equality then voted against homosexuals in the name of religion. It is astounding that anyone who is a minority would gladly and freely take away someone else's rights. Let me be clear, I completely disagree with iSm's statement above. But I share in his anger at the hypocrites who say 'Yes we can' with Obama and then say 'No you can't' to the gay community in the same breath.

I am not about to defend iSm. His comment was completely and totally out of line. And I will vent my further frustration and point out to him that he has said a great number of things in the past that hurt and offended people to only take them back afterward. Know that the hurt still lingers even after a retraction, Mr. iSm. You need to filter that sh!t.

Betty

11-06-2008, 11:30 AM

As for his comment - I'm inclined to say to leave it in and let him live with the consequences of his words/actions. Perhaps it will serve as a reminder - although I'd hate to see it come up in quotes over and over.

innerSpaceman

11-06-2008, 11:35 AM

But once that day is achieved you won't feel any desire to use it where you did. You weren't using it to dilute its harming impact, you were using it to exploit it.
Oh, absolutely.

But it would have been like me using "Pantywaste" to really mean something awful ... and it still would remain harmless because society has moved way beyond the hurtful effect of that word.

Ok, yeah, so maybe being an up-to-date guy I wouldn't have used "Pantywaste."

I'm not claiming I used the "N" word because I personally think it's meaningless. I used it for derrogatory effect because I know it's still taken that way if I as a white internet person use it (though, hello, unless you know me, you can't tell the color of my skin over the internet).

And yes, I thought it was completely appropriate turnabout on those black voters, seventy percent of them, who consider me and mine subhuman and, yes, absolutely the new n*ggers of the world - - ok to spit on, to dehumanize, to abuse and humiliate.

So Fvck Them and, yes, I liked throwing their stupid word back at them.

But it's just a stupid word ... and I remain congratutory of blacks on their road to disarming the word completely. Obviously, that's not yet done. And as long as they insist it's off limits to whites, it won't be done.

So, it's fine by me if you straight folk use "Faggot."

Alex

11-06-2008, 11:40 AM

This is going to sound rough. I absolutely adore my friends and family members who spoke out against Prop 8. I appreciate the anger and grief you feel from the day Prop 8 came on the ballot to today. But part of me is frustrated because I have been feeling that same anger and grief now everyday for the past 10 years that I have been a gay activist and everyday since I came out of the closet 15 years ago. So I say to you, 'Welcome to the club. You should be hurt and angry. Thank you for joining in. Don't just tell me about how you're mad, show me that you're going to do something about it. We need your help.'

This is the part I'm feeling guilt over. By nature I am not a demonstrative person. I am also not a joiner. Though much reduced over the years I still dread talking to people I don't know, especially if it could be confrontational.

When the Supreme Court ruling came down I said congratulations even though I don't think that the judiciary is the best way to achieve these victories. And I still feel that way, judicial victories before the general population is ready for them tend to inflame rather than settle. And therefore I could sit mostly on the sidelines, letting the main "combatants" slowly move the ball with me doing my small things to advance it and mostly not get in the way.

But, while I was willing to see it achieved (admittedly the more painful path I would not personally bear the brunt of) through the slow road of demographic change, the victory was still won.

And I was overconfident. Overconfident that while I was pretty sure the population wouldn't vote to give gay marriage, they also wouldn't vote to take it away.

And I was lulled. Lulled by the polls showing that while it would be dispiritingly close, it would still fail and that each year after that it would become increasingly unlikely anybody would ever again succeed at doing away with that victory.

So I gnashed my teeth at the Yes on 8 sign wavers. I resisted the urge to pull Yes on 8 signs out of the ground. I convinced myself that the Yes on 8 crowd could not be convinced otherwise, and fortunately for me (or so I thought) they don't need to be convinced. They would lose, and each year they would lose some more. And eventually they would be far enough in the loss column that they would have to hide their views in polite company and then they would begin to die out.

But I was wrong. And while I don't honestly believe a fuller participation on my part would have changed anything, I should have done it anyway.

Moonliner

11-06-2008, 11:40 AM

So, it's fine by me if you straight folk use "Faggot."

I (http://www.loungeoftomorrow.com/LoT/showpost.php?p=232655&postcount=19) can call my gay friends 'faggot,' but straight people better dare not.

Huh.

JWBear

11-06-2008, 11:45 AM

After long thought and careful consideration I have decided that I can not be angry at the majority of Californians who voted "yes". They did not do it out of malice. Some voted due to outdated and unexamined personal convictions, others due to being confused and misled by the lies. They did not vote the way they did in order to strike a blow against gay rights, for they do not see it in that light. To them, it is a matter of protecting something they think is threatened. They are wrong and misinformed, but they are not malevolent. I truly believe that, if not for the lies of the "Yes on 8" organizers, many of these people would have voted differently. With enough time and education, they will come around.

No, I’ll reserve my anger, my condemnation, and yes, my hatred for the people who ran the pro-8 campaign - the ones who used their positions and influence to lie their way to victory. They are our true enemies. The good people of California were merely the pawns in their evil game. These are the people we must fight. This is where our energy must be directed.

Ghoulish Delight

11-06-2008, 11:55 AM

I'm not claiming I used the "N" word because I personally think it's meaningless. I used it for derrogatory effect because I know it's still taken that way if I as a white internet person use it (though, hello, unless you know me, you can't tell the color of my skin over the internet).

No black person reclaiming the word would use it the way you did. No gay person would say, "Fvck those subhuman faggots," and mean it.

The word alone has no power and never did, how it's used and the meaning it's used with does. You specifically used it to invoke the hateful, disgusting sentiments that, whether we have an black President or not, continue to make it difficult for blacks to be equal members of society. You can't hide behind apologies, retractions, and claims of progression of the term when you've clearly used it in the most regressive way possible.

Inexcusable no matter how hatefully anyone may have acted in voting. Turnabout is NOT fair play.

bewitched

11-06-2008, 12:01 PM

I don't live in California. I couldn't add my direct support to the "no on 8" movement. I live in Kansas where my gay friends are not even able to dream of entering into a legal marriage (or even having it recognized if the are married where it is legal). By stating this, I in no way mean to diminish the real pain felt by those of you who have been directly effected. So...

I am so sorry that bigotry and hatred carried the day. I am so sorry that so many people choose to vilify love and commitment rather than celebrating it as they should. There is so much **** in this world. Death, suffering, war...love should be celebrated, whatever its form.

My heart goes out to you. Let this be a small bump in your road to equality. When that day comes we will all, as humans, be the better for it.

innerSpaceman

11-06-2008, 12:08 PM

Inexcusable no matter how hatefully anyone may have acted in voting. Turnabout is NOT fair play.
absolutely unfair, dirty tricks. Yes. And G.C. is right, I'm infamous for shooting off my mouth in offensive and hurtful ways and then taking it back when I calm down, regain my better self ... but the pain of the sting likely lingers.

MIND YOU ... if we had a SINGLE black member of the LoT, I would not have used that word. That's no excuse either ... but I would have refrained from hurting someone, though I did not shy from offending.

Still ... my attack and retract behavior is terrible. I work on it from time to time. It gets better, then worse.

I'm pretty riled up, disgusted, disappointed, highly upset and agitated right now ... but that's no excuse for one of my horrible behavior patterns that I'm highly ashamed of.

I'm also highly ashamed that I didn't contribute more than a pittance to the No on 8 campaign, and dropped out of the organized defeat effort - only to devote my unending efforts and spend thousands of dollars on a Halloween Party.

So part of my anger and disgust is fueled my by own guilt.

I'm really sorry. I'd like to be a better person. :(

Morrigoon

11-06-2008, 12:08 PM

Channel 4 is already stationed at the temple, ready for the rally

BarTopDancer

11-06-2008, 12:08 PM

If the majority of Yes voters were Jews would you invoke the "k" word?

Inexcusable, unacceptable and frankly the apology really has no meaning after so many other inappropriate comments that were later apologized for. Actions speak louder than words, and while it's easier to ask for forgiveness then permission it gets harder and harder to grant forgiveness for the same thing over and over and over again.

I'm about as equally disgusted with the uses of the N word as I am with people who voted Yes. And saddened that someone I know could actually use that word in that way.

lizziebith

11-06-2008, 12:18 PM

MIND YOU ... if we had a SINGLE black member of the LoT, I would not have used that word. That's no excuse either ... but I would have refrained from hurting someone, though I did not shy from offending.

Just an FYI: we DO have a black member of the LoT. One of my friends outside the internet, who I invited and who may not post very much, but post he most certainly has. Can you guess who?

bewitched

11-06-2008, 12:23 PM

As a member of LoT who has been here almost from the beginning (albeit infrequently until lately)...I am not well known by most of you, nor do I know most of you terribly well.

I don't know iSm's past behavior well, nor do I particularly want to be inundated with past details. Clearly, he has offended and retracted on more than one occasion, causing anger and hurt. Bigotry and hatred (whether in word or action) is inexcusable in any form. Having said that, iSm has apologized...several times. He cannot take back his words, even if they are physically erased. It seems that in the spirit of wanting to celebrate love and acceptance for all, we should try to graciously accept his apology at face value. That doesn't mean we accept what we said as okay, it only means that we accept his regret (and perhaps shame) for his words.

Almost 2 pages have been spent vilifying iSm's words. Maybe it is time to move along and return to vilifying the bigger injustice wrought by yesterday's vote.

Ghoulish Delight

11-06-2008, 12:28 PM

Gemini Cricket

11-06-2008, 12:35 PM

I haven't decided if I'm going to the 2pm rally today. I'm feeling a lot of things.

1. I would love to go and be one of the numbers there.

2. I worry that there will be a lot of anger.

3. I'm kinda burned out.

4. Work is graciously allowing me to go, but I feel an obligation to stay at work.

5. Kinda feeling that the rally might be represented in the media as gays picking on the religious.

6. Parking around there is crazy.

7. Thinking if I don't go that I won't be able to hear what was said. Then again, there is YouTube.

bewitched

11-06-2008, 12:41 PM

I appreciate the outside view.

But he HAS done this before, too many times, and for me this may be the straw that broke the camels back. Especially since in the last one he proudly declared himself a racist. He thinks he can get a free pass at saying hateful things if he just apologizes afterwards, and I for one am tired of it.

Please don't think I am in any way trying to diminish your anger/hurt nor anyone else's. I'm not. I respect that I am far removed from your experience so my forgiveness may be easier in coming than if I had your experience (and I by NO means wish for that to be interpreted as I am somehow better or bigger for offering my forgiveness-- as I said, I have not experienced all that you and many others have). Bigotry and hatred is painful-- in all forms. I just hate to see this thread devolve into a referendum on iSm's behavior. I would rather see the anger directed at the bigger injustice.

Nonetheless, I respect my view may not be the majority's and will let this post be "my piece" (as my grandmother would have said) and leave it at that. I have no desire to add to any further anger (and please don't interpret this as me thinking that your post was an attack on what I said, I don't).

Scrooge McSam

11-06-2008, 12:59 PM

Steve,

For what it's worth (which ain't all that much), I forgive you. Just as I've forgiven the guy who split my chin in a bar for "sitting with that bunch of **** so I guess that makes you one too".

I've been where you were mentally last night, looking sideways at every person in my life wondering if they helped reduce me to subhuman status with their vote. It's a horrible soul-destroying place.

While I find the way you chose to express your anger hurtful, I believe you when you say you are sorry for the words you chose, and not just because other have rightfully called you out on it. I do not condemn you, nor will I nurse a grudge.

Just try harder not to hurt others because you are hurt or angry. Rather, use that anger to make a change for the better. You know how. You've already begun to figure it out.

My best to you in these trying times,

Sam

innerSpaceman

11-06-2008, 01:03 PM

Heheh, obviously I agree with Bewitched that it seems a little bit of a streteched-out tangent to be going on and on about me and my turrets problem.

I appreciate people who are tired of it. It's old. And it's obnoxious.

What else more is there to say?

Maybe since we have/had 18 election threads (12 of them started in appreciated-humor attempts to get my goat), we can have a FVCKED UP INNERSPACEMAN thread and let this one get back to the real issue of bigotry againt fags and discuss my bigotry against negroes in a separate thread devoted especially to that.

But I'll have nothing to say there. I've apologized. I've explained the root of my hurt and guilty feelings, and expressed that they are insuffient to justify my faux-pas, and I've bemoaned my own continuing behavorial problems of --- omg - sometimes saying something offensive on the internet!

NEXT SUBJECT PLEASE.

Chernabog

11-06-2008, 01:03 PM

5. Kinda feeling that the rally might be represented in the media as gays picking on the religious.

Turnabout is fair play. The Mormons just kneed us in the balls and there's a pretty clear direction for our anger. Gloves are off.

Betty

11-06-2008, 01:08 PM

I would like to think at if another member of our special little group said things they later regretted they would be forgiven - but not forgotten. someone should write a song about that. ;)

I don't think iSm is all that bad of a person that you can't forgive those comments though - is he?

Or does that just show deep down how he *really* is and he just covers it up the rest of the time?

I know I've said things in RL that I've gone on to regret. Luckily it's not in print and ready for everyone's review over and over.

I would hate to see iSm not post here anymore though. For the most part, I enjoy his sense of humor and the things he contributes.

And he such a faggot. ;)

Moonliner

11-06-2008, 01:11 PM

Protest coverage on CNN (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/11/06/dcl.gutierrez.prop8.protest.cnn)

Isaac

11-06-2008, 01:22 PM

If you don't like someone's posts, put them on your ignore list & get over it.
Turnabout is fair play. The Mormons just kneed us in the balls and there's a pretty clear direction for our anger. Gloves are off.
Totally. WTF do mormons in Utah have to do w/ marriage in California anyway ?

SacTown Chronic

11-06-2008, 01:23 PM

Steve said a bad word! I'm tellin'!

Grow up, people.

Isaac

11-06-2008, 01:24 PM

Hehehe.

You said 'up'. :D

JWBear

11-06-2008, 01:36 PM

Here's a thought... Would it be possible for California gay and lesbians to sue the Mormon Church for damages, or for conspirisy to deprive us of essential human rights?

Morrigoon

11-06-2008, 01:41 PM

Perhaps, but it would be a poor PR move.

Chernabog

11-06-2008, 01:43 PM

Were the instructions on how to report the Mormons to the IRS to try and revoke their tax exempt status posted on here yet?

JWBear

11-06-2008, 01:44 PM

Perhaps, but it would be a poor PR move.

Why?

Snowflake

11-06-2008, 01:44 PM

Were the instructions on how to report the Mormons to the IRS to try and revoke their tax exempt status posted on here yet?

Yes, I posted them Cherney a page or two back.

BarTopDancer

11-06-2008, 01:49 PM

Are you supposed to mail the articles in with the document?

Strangler Lewis

11-06-2008, 01:50 PM

Protest coverage on CNN (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/11/06/dcl.gutierrez.prop8.protest.cnn)

I PROTEST COVERAGE ON CNN!

Done.

Morrigoon

11-06-2008, 01:50 PM

Why?
Right now, they're the big mean church that stepped all over your rights. You've got the upper hand, PR-wise. Get too mean against them though, and they become the poor downtrodden church that the big mean liberals are trying to extort money from.

You want - need - public opinion on your side. If this vote proves anything, it proves that.

innerSpaceman

11-06-2008, 02:13 PM

Well, I'm going to the rally ... I have a very cheeky sign that could easily be taken to be quite nasty, and also could be properly taken to be rather funny with a sardonic edge.

Sums up me quite nicely. I go over the edge far too often, and perhaps that's because I play near the edge a lot ... but likely it's because I'm a really imperfect person.

Oh, but if I took action to deny someone's civil rights ... I, as a gay man, would deserve every sneer of "Faggot" the group I acted against cared to hurl at me.

Gemini Cricket

11-06-2008, 02:21 PM

Just to be a mischief maker last night, I felt like carrying a sign that said "Ban Itchy & Scratchy". I refrained from doing so.

Ghoulish Delight

11-06-2008, 02:47 PM

For what it's worth, I was going to let the comment pass. I've been more angry over this than I've been over anything in a long time and I'm not even directly affected, so I can't fathom the magnitude of anger felt by someone at whom this act of bigotry has been directly leveled. So while I found it hateful, bigoted, misdirected and wrong, at least the original comment came from honest emotion.

It was the series of insincere fumbling apologies, once again, that offended me more. If you had owned your anger instead of made excuses for it, my reaction would have been different. But even having had time to cool down and think about it, the best you could come up with was, "I'm sorry I said it out loud, but I have no shame for continuing to hold these racist thoughts." It was ugly.

That's the last I'll say on the subject.

Morrigoon

11-06-2008, 03:26 PM

KCAL is showing the protest. Looks like a good size crowd.

Morrigoon

11-06-2008, 03:43 PM

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b321/morrigoon/LoT%20images/protestoncnn.jpg

Gemini Cricket

11-06-2008, 03:43 PM

I'm watching the Live feeds of CNN and KCAL.

LSPoorEeyorick

11-06-2008, 03:47 PM

Oh, but if I took action to deny someone's civil rights ... I, as a gay man, would deserve every sneer of "Faggot" the group I acted against cared to hurl at me.

No one EVER deserves either of those words hurled in anger. They're insults about race or sexuality used in place of whatever you're actually angry about. You're angry because people acted in ignorance or bigotry. You're not angry that they're black. And when you use that word - even if you're spelling it wrong to avoid the full shame of the real word - it comes off as only racism, not justified anger. You are undermining this cause by using it.

innerSpaceman

11-06-2008, 04:16 PM

No, I was not angry they are black. I just felt it approrpriate to hurl that word against them when they acted against my civil rights.

It was an impolitik choice. And I regret only that particular choice, but not the anger that prompted it. And it has zero to do with racism, though in this case the hypocritcal minority was a race. If the jews had voted 70% in favor of Prop 8, I would have called them ****s. If the gays had voted against black civil rights, I would call them fags.

None of this from racism or sexism (notice there's no word for the type of bigotry against homosexuality) ... but from anger at hypocricy and the feeling that a reminder of why it's hypocricy is appropriate. I could have done better expressing that reminder than to use the short-cut ephithet of nastiness. And I only regret I didn't think it through and express that less offensively.

I'm really very offended myself, though don't ask anyone to care, that my attempts to correct, apologize, explain my innermost thoughts and failings are met with dismissal and contempt by some.

And I'm very appreciative of those who've put my use of a nasty word in perspective.

And, yes, I'm appreciative of the feedback and criticism ... it's been primarily constructive.

innerSpaceman

11-06-2008, 05:49 PM

ok, so on to the topic at hand and not the separate topic of steve.

The Rally at the Mormon Temple was TeH aWEsoMe!

For some reason, being in front of the Mormon Temple, at the heart of darkness, was far more fulfilling and meaningful than being in West Hollywood.

Likewise, though people driving through West Hollywood don't necessarily live there ... the constant and enthusiastic support from more "random" drivers in West L.A. was incredibly gratifying.

Though the protest was ostensibly in anger at the Mormon Church (and there were many anti-Mormon signs and chants) ... the mood was - imo - far more positive than at last night's rally. Then again, there was no "program" per se ... just protest, a jolly crowd of gays and supporters, lots of reporters, and happy motorists.

My much more professionally made sign, btw, read "One Man and One Woman OR One Man and Six? MORMONS Mind Your Own Marriage Business!"

After about half an hour, though, the crowd got a little rambunctious and again defeated their own good purpose by spilling out into Santa Monica Blvd. and totally blocking westbound traffic. Moments later, the cops - instead of breaking up the protest - just diverted all of westbound Santa Monica Blvd. traffic onto southbound Overland. Whoa. And no mayor of L.A. in attendance to encourage the police not to crack down. (The WeHo mayor was on hand at last night's event.)

This kinda wrecked it for me. There were no longer a stream of supporting motorists to express their overwhelming solidarity (if the same percentage of total Californians felt likewise, the measure would have failed in a landslide ... but the Mormons decided to build their Temple in very liberal West L.A.)

I tried to get people out of the middle of the street so the fun could continue and the cops not freak out, but there was no stopping it. And I got into a rather lively argument with a grizzled old gay who was apparently a veteran of Stonewall and who likely didn't recognize that I was old enough to have been there, too (ya know, if I knew I was gay at 9 years old and decided to sneak into Manhattan for a drink in the East Village).

He insisted the way to affect gay acceptance change is to stop the functioning of civil society, even if it meant pissing off the general populace. I vehemently disagreed with him, and pointed out that hundreds of drivers were expressing their support, and now we were getting them mad at us. But there was no brooking disagreement with this gay geezer, and he was happy as a clam that no one could drive west of Overland, mwha haha!

Someone suggested that it might be useful to stop traffic at rush hour so close to Century City, and I had to concede that would be something halfway significant.

But being so close to Century City, I'm glad I knew I couldn't very well skip this rally on an extended lunch hour. The protest was awesome. I loved a thousand gays and others shouting Shame On You while pointing their fingers at the Mormon Temple, and the vibe was just really positive and fun.

Wow, it's 4:45 p.m. right now, and from a telephone conversation I just heard, traffic may still be messed up from the protests that may still be going on!

I didn't run into anyone from the LoT ... but that gave me the space I needed to talk to strangers and have fun with random gays.

It was, quite clearly, the Best.Lunch.Hour.Ever!

:snap: :snap: :snap:

Morrigoon

11-06-2008, 05:54 PM

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/livenow?id=6430355 <-- live feed of coverage of protest STILL going on

innerSpaceman

11-06-2008, 06:02 PM

OK, wtf? That's not Santa Monica Blvd and that's NOT near the Mormon Temple.

Looks like it might be Wilshire. Tall buildings like that are not on Olympic or Pico OR Santa Monica, and there's no big median like on Santa Monica.

What the hell???

Where are they .... and how do I get there after work??

ETA: They just zoomed out. Definitely Wilshire and the protesters are heading west, looking to hit Sepulveda Blvd. in about 10 - 15 minutes.

How the frell did they get on Wilshire????!?

Gemini Cricket

11-06-2008, 06:46 PM

I'm just blown away that the protest is still going on.
Wow!

BarTopDancer

11-06-2008, 07:08 PM

I don't have any details beyond this - there will be a protest in LB tomorrow night. Hopefully someone can get more info

innerSpaceman

11-06-2008, 07:53 PM

I checked the KCAL link in this thread just before I left work, but they didn't zoom out and I had NO IDEA where they were ... or i might have tried to hook up with the moving protest zone again.

Turns out I likes protestin'. It's some kind of release, and positive action in response to something that's clearly gnawing at me in unfathomable ways of dangerous potential.

Betty

11-06-2008, 08:01 PM

I had to give him my first negative mojo ever for that one.

Dude - I know you're pissed but come on now. :rolleyes: 2 wrongs don't make a right and all that.

Oops - didn't mean to quote you. Sorry about that. Darn it. too late to edit it now too. :rolleyes:

Kevy Baby

11-06-2008, 08:12 PM

I PROTEST COVERAGE ON CNN!

Done.OK, that was funny

If you don't like someone's posts, put them on your ignore list & get over it.If it were only that simple. (Hint: its not)

Oops - didn't mean to quote you. Sorry about that. Darn it. too late to edit it now too. :rolleyes:For everyone else: Betty was referencing the fact that she quoted my post. In case you needed the context.

Not Afraid

11-06-2008, 09:52 PM

I got visited by Baptists at home today. A giant bus pulled up in ront of my house and a load of people hopped out and started dispersing through the hood. They knocked on my door to give me a flyer. I returned it to them. They told me that there was important questions on the back that would answer whether or not I was going to heaven. I said, I'm not worried about that because I believe I'm going to "heaven".

The rest of the convo went like this M=me B=Bigot

B: Oh really? What church do you go to?
M; I don't attend a church.
B: We'd love to have you join ours
M: What's your position on Prop 8?
B: I believe marriage should be between a man and a women.
M: Well, I don't hang with bigots
B: So, you think it's OK if a mother wants to marry her daughter?
M: What does THAT have to do with it? I'm know many a happy, long term same sex couple and not ONE is a Mother Daugher combo. My next doof neighbours have been together longer than I have with my husband. They are a FAMILY. They don't have the same civil rights as me? That's wrong
B: Have a nice day.

I yelled BIGOTS after them.

Then I went and pit my No on 8 sign back up in my front yard.

I was PISSED OFF. There are so many more things I could've said and I'm mad I didn't say them.

The is the 5tth time since Halloween that church people have been canvassing the neighborhood. We have a HUGE gay population here (the neighborhood nickname is Lavender Heights). Plus, we're all satanic because we LOVE Halloween. ;)

Idiot bigots.

Not Afraid

11-06-2008, 09:53 PM

If anyone know more about a Long Beach protest, please post.

Disneyphile

11-06-2008, 09:55 PM

If there are any weekend evening protests, I'd love to get involved.

Eliza Hodgkins 1812

11-06-2008, 10:05 PM

If anyone know more about a Long Beach protest, please post.

Just recieved this, actually:
"MARCH DOWN BROADWAY TO PROTEST PROP 8 OUTCOME" tomorrow.

Event: MARCH DOWN BROADWAY TO PROTEST PROP 8 OUTCOME
"Voice Your Disgust With The Prop. 8 Outcome"
What: Protest
Host: The LGBT Community of Long Beach
Start Time: Tomorrow, November 7 at 6:45pm
End Time: Tomorrow, November 7 at 9:00pm
Where: Broadway and Redondo

Isaac

11-06-2008, 10:05 PM

Ooh! I'm in!

I'll try to get out of work early to make sure I get there on time.

:D

BarTopDancer

11-06-2008, 10:07 PM

If anyone know more about a Long Beach protest, please post.

I found this on the interwebs
(http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-141153) which lines up with what my friend has been hearing.
Friday night (tomorrow) we plan to march down Broadway in the city of Long Beach in 3 stages. For those who cannot walk the entire route, we welcome your support on the sidelines.

FRIDAY NIGHT - 7pm Intersection of Broadway and Redondo (near the Library CoffeeHouse) in Belmont Heights. We need a large amount of people to completely blocks the intersection and start marching down Broadway to completely CLOSE DOWN the street. Contact your list, email, text, telephone, etc...let each other know WE WILL NOT TOLERATE THIS INJUSTICE! Find parking ahead of time either down the route, or in the neighborhoods that stage starts in. I recommend the Broadway bus Route 111/112 if you're starting with us, The little Red bus down Ocean and off at Redondo, then walk three blocks north.

FRIDAY NIGHT (Second Stage) - 7:30-7:45pm Intersection of Broadway and Junipero in Bluff Heights. Come join us and walk with us to the next rallying point. Show your peers that they need to join in on the struggle for EQUAL RIGHTS. We will continue to March down Broadway and pull people from the bars to march with us. We will encourage people shopping and dining to join us in our statement to the State of California that THIS IS WRONG! Again, parking will be tight, so arrive EARLY. The park is a great spot to ditch the car while you walk. The OCean little red bus works too, as does the 4th Street bus.

FRIDAY NIGHT (Third and Final Stage) - 8:15 - 8:30pm Intersection of Broadway and Alamitos in Bluff Heights (near Hamburger Marys) We will start the last leg of our march to PIne Ave and down to Ocean Blvd. WE WILL BE HEARD TOMORROW NIGHT. Bring signs, candles, comfortable shoes to march in. Encourage friends and family, gay and straight alike to join us. WE NEED TO MAKE A POWERFUL PRESENCE tomorrow night. All bus routes apply here. Parking IS a bear downtown, but we're on a mission....find a way!

The organizers of NO ON PROP 8 have been notified, and we need WAY MORE PEOPLE!! THANK YOU ALL for joining in our efforts to hear our loud voices heard. Please please please be peaceful. No altercations our vandalism during the march. We're marching through OUR main neighborhoods, we wish to make a positive statement, not an unruly one.

Copy and paste this to your friends, families, blog it, broadcast it, text it, email it, just get the word out.

Not Afraid

11-06-2008, 10:09 PM

Thanks, EH!

Ghoulish Delight

11-06-2008, 10:15 PM

Hmmmm. I'm thinking CP should use her day off tomorrow to see what's going on at Chapman. There was STRONG No support in the weeks running up, if they've got people outside at the University, we might be able to find something local.

€uroMeinke

11-06-2008, 10:26 PM

I'd love to see the gay equivalent of the million man march, hoping on buses and heading to Salt Lake City for a weekend long Love-in.

Eliza Hodgkins 1812

11-06-2008, 10:33 PM

I've attended one protest in my life, more as a favor than by choice. A friend came to visit me in NYC and he wanted to go. We were sandwiched between people and moving at a snail's pace. I had a mild panic attack. Not a fan of large crowds and slow walking. I had an immediate need to flee and he had to help me out of the crowd. And I bailed on AIDS Walk for a similar reason. Sandwiched in a crowd, slow walking. I think this combo is my idea of limbo. Not quite a circle in hell but far, far from heaven.

So, I'm a wuss. With an aversion to the gathered masses. I wouldn't go to Woodstock and I probably won't attend a no on hate protest, though I love the idea and I'll try to find other ways to have my say. To all those who gather, kudos and good luck! Fight hard, and be safe.

JWBear

11-06-2008, 10:44 PM

We're in! (Broadway and Redondo is within walking distance of our house!)

Not Afraid

11-06-2008, 10:45 PM

Can i park in your driveway?

JWBear

11-06-2008, 10:49 PM

Sure!

Alex

11-06-2008, 10:54 PM

Not Afraid

11-06-2008, 11:01 PM

Alex, why don't you just come for an extended visit to my house. I swear, we get daily visits lately.

€uroMeinke

11-06-2008, 11:05 PM

I want someone to come to my door and ask me those questions. Because I do want to know what they script says to say when I respond "Yes, so long as they are both adults when they make the decision I have no problem with a mother marrying her daughter."

I'm just wondering how that's more "horrific" than a father marrying his daughter - which presumably is more acceptable according to imaginary biblical teachings.

Alex

11-06-2008, 11:10 PM

Alex, why don't you just come for an extended visit to my house. I swear, we get daily visits lately.

Well, next time, can you take act as my proxy and let me know how it goes?

Just a reminder: So long as everybody involved is a freely consenting adult then I am fine with any combination of two or more people.

€uroMeinke

11-06-2008, 11:11 PM

Since the last time I participated in any protest was in the late 80s with ACT-UP, I decided to comb the internet to find out what happened to them and some of the other groups of the day (Queer Nation). I was delighted to read this in the ACT-UP wikipedia entry:

ACT UP was intentionally organized as a leaderless and effectively anarchist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist) network.

Made me smile

€uroMeinke

11-06-2008, 11:13 PM

Well, next time, can you take act as my proxy and let me know how it goes?

Just a reminder: So long as everybody involved is a freely consenting adult then I am fine with any combination of two or more people.

I would want to first ask a clarifying question if the mother and daughter were of the same or different races

JWBear

11-06-2008, 11:22 PM

So.... What does one wear to a protest these days? One wouldn't want to be too casual when the cause is important, would one?

Gemini Cricket

11-06-2008, 11:23 PM

So.... What does one wear to a protest these days?

A frock and your best shoes, dear.

Isaac

11-06-2008, 11:27 PM

A frock and your best shoes, dear.
A frock Obama ? ;)

I'm gonna wear my Halloween costume.
Every fag protest needs a cowboy. :)

Gemini Cricket

11-06-2008, 11:35 PM

And now a little break from Prop 8. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dsg8JccRZCw)

Isaac,
Hmm. If I show up, maybe I'll wear cowboy duds, too.
:)

Isaac

11-06-2008, 11:54 PM

You be Jake.
I'll be Heath.

:D

Chernabog

11-06-2008, 11:56 PM

Will invited you to "MARCH DOWN BROADWAY TO PROTEST PROP 8 OUTCOME" tomorrow.

Event: MARCH DOWN BROADWAY TO PROTEST PROP 8 OUTCOME
"Voice Your Disgust With The Prop. 8 Outcome"
What: Protest
Host: The LGBT Community of Long Beach
Start Time: Tomorrow, November 7 at 6:45pm
End Time: Tomorrow, November 7 at 9:00pm
Where: Broadway and Redondo

To see more details and RSVP, follow the link below:
http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=1002850035&k=5YM64656T3VM5DAATDWYWS

Facebook helps you keep in touch with your friends and family and reconnect with people you lost touch with. You can share unlimited photos, plan events and join discussion groups. It's free and everyone can join. To register, go to:
http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=1002850035&k=5YM64656T3VM5DAATDWYWS&r

was that posted yet?

I was at the Mormon Church today and sat down in the street on Westwood and Santa Monica with the riot police around us, stopping traffic. :) :)

Edit: Oops saw that was posted earlier.

Another one is this, but I am NOT getting up that early.

Will invited you to "March on the Mormon Temple!!!!! Defeat H8!" on Saturday, November 8 at 6:30am.

Event: March on the Mormon Temple!!!!! Defeat H8!
"Show them our solidarity!"
What: Protest
Host: Rational and fair minded people of Los Angeles!
Start Time: Saturday, November 8 at 6:30am
End Time: Saturday, November 8 at 9:30am
Where: Los Angeles California Temple

Isaac

11-06-2008, 11:58 PM

Yes but it's quite welcome :)

Now, HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Z11obllEQ) is a (swanky) break from prop 8

innerSpaceman

11-07-2008, 06:49 AM

Hmm, i've put off training my ex's dog to deal with his wheelie-cart all week for protest and election activities, so I have to deal with that tonight.

I'm gonna try to head down to LB for that "last leg" - hoping I can find a decent place to park near there in a part of town I know ZERO about. (So any locals with advice for that, please feel free to chime in).

I may even go to the early one on Saturday morning because protesting at the Mormon Temple was uniquely satisfying (sorry I didn't see you there yesterday, Cherny).

Seeing that I've been up since 3 am and my sleep pattern is clearly disturbed, an early morning protest in my part of town might be easy and breezy. Besides, my Mormon sign is the nicest of the two (and it doesn't imply I'm married, which was a strategical blunder at the first protest). ;)

Is there a theme for the Long Beach protest? Should I be making a third sign???

Chernabog

11-07-2008, 08:39 AM

Is there a theme for the Long Beach protest? Should I be making a third sign???

"Ho ho, hey hey, Queen Ma-ry is here to stay?" LOL I dont know if there's a theme actually. I think the usual signs, equal rights, suck it Mormon Church and/or Roman Catholic Church...... I think there was one yesterday that said "keep your magic underwear off of my marriage" or something like that lol.

Sorry I didnt see u there either!

BarTopDancer

11-07-2008, 09:18 AM

Cindy, please post the information about the group in OC.

Cherny or Steve, please post about the church protests tomorrow.

Thank you!

Gemini Cricket

11-07-2008, 09:20 AM

Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008
Time: 6:00pm - 9:00pm
Location: Sunset Junction
Street: Corner of Sunset Blvd. and Santa Monica Blvd
City/Town: Los Angeles, CA

Gemini Cricket

11-07-2008, 09:24 AM

A picture of yesterday's protest at the Mormon Temple on Santa Monica Blvd made the front page of the LA Times this morning. It was above the fold. I think that's wonderful.

Online version of the story (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-protest7-2008nov07,0,3827549.story)

Snowflake

11-07-2008, 09:32 AM

827

Isaac

11-07-2008, 09:54 AM

LOL!

LOVE that one!

Umm,.... can someone give me directions from Irvine to the LB protest tonight ?

JWBear

11-07-2008, 10:03 AM

LOL!

LOVE that one!

Umm,.... can someone give me directions from Irvine to the LB protest tonight ?

Just come up the 405 to 7th Street. Take 7th to Redondo, turn left at Redondo to Broadway.

Not Afraid

11-07-2008, 10:36 AM

I'm going to the LB protest come hell or high water. I don't know if Chris will be home in time to join us for the first leg, but he may be able to join us later. If anyone wants to meet at my house, my care holds 5 and maybe we can park at John and Bill's and walk down.

blueerica

11-07-2008, 10:44 AM

Notice for the SLC protest:

Not since the Stonewall Riots of 1969 in New York have we as a
community really stood up for our rights in a determined way. Our
Pride Parades are an event, not a protest. Our court battles are
fought by few while we watch from the comfort of our living rooms.
Our petitions we sign while shopping online.

Society as a whole underestimates us. They underestimate our size.
They underestimate our determination. They underestimate our
conviction. They underestimate our power. Now is the time that we
need to remind them.

This week the religious activists in California decided to take our
civil rights, which they take for granted, and they put it up for a
majority vote. Even more despicable than voting to take away rights
of a minority is the fact that major religions, especially the Mormon
Church, dedicated, and in some instances mandated, that their members
dedicate time and money to passing this discriminatory cause.
We'll march around Temple Square and the Church Office Building. Let's
show them that we are many, that we are powerful, and that we will not
sit idle as they force their religion into our lives and into national
politics.

Please show up with your posters, flags and banners (and dress
warmly!) Will meet on State Street and North Temple. Bring your
friends and your relatives.

Pass this message along to EVERYONE you know who has any respect for
the rights of other people. Let's show the Church that we've had
enough of their political influence in our lifes!

Not Afraid

11-07-2008, 10:46 AM

Parking is a problem, but there are neighborhoods that you may be able to find parking in. Be prepared to walk. You might have luck parking at Cherry Park which is between Broadway and Ocean (E/W) and Junipero and Cherry ((E/W). There are no lots downtown, but there are many on 2nd street and you can take a bus from there.

FRIDAY NIGHT - 7pm Intersection of Broadway and Redondo (near the Library CoffeeHouse) in Belmont Heights. We need a large amount of people to completely blocks the intersection and start marching down Broadway to completely CLOSE DOWN the street. Contact your list, email, text, telephone, etc...let each other know WE WILL NOT TOLERATE THIS INJUSTICE! Find parking ahead of time either down the route, or in the neighborhoods that stage starts in. I recommend the Broadway bus Route 111/112 if you're starting with us, The little Red bus down Ocean and off at Redondo, then walk three blocks north.

FRIDAY NIGHT (Second Stage) - 7:30-7:45pm Intersection of Broadway and Junipero in Bluff Heights. Come join us and walk with us to the next rallying point. Show your peers that they need to join in on the struggle for EQUAL RIGHTS. We will continue to March down Broadway and pull people from the bars to march with us. We will encourage people shopping and dining to join us in our statement to the State of California that THIS IS WRONG! Again, parking will be tight, so arrive EARLY. The park is a great spot to ditch the car while you walk. The OCean little red bus works too, as does the 4th Street bus.

FRIDAY NIGHT (Third and Final Stage) - 8:15 - 8:30pm Intersection of Broadway and Alamitos in Bluff Heights (near Hamburger Marys) We will start the last leg of our march to PIne Ave and down to Ocean Blvd. WE WILL BE HEARD TOMORROW NIGHT. Bring signs, candles, comfortable shoes to march in. Encourage friends and family, gay and straight alike to join us. WE NEED TO MAKE A POWERFUL PRESENCE tomorrow night. All bus routes apply here. Parking IS a bear downtown, but we're on a mission....find a way!

innerSpaceman

11-07-2008, 10:57 AM

I'll be lucky if I can make to the final stage portion. I hope to find some reasonable parking near there ... and hey, I could ferry 3 people back to the starting line in my car!

Oh and I'm just warning .... Widespread Liberal West L.A. support has evaporated (at least for this morning) after the protests DEMOLISHED rush hour traffic yesterday, causing commute times to extend from an average normal 30 minutes to over two hours.

People in L.A. do not like to be fvcked with where they live ... i.e., in their cars. And since most people in West L.A. support the cause, they resent being targeted.

I thought it was a pretty stupid thing to do, too. It was great when the Mormon Temple was targeted. Motorists were overwhelmingly supportive. That changed when the populace of West L.A. was targeted.

I don't know that will translate into people negating their own progressive views on civil rights, but it's not a strategy that's going to win over any new friends.

On a personal level ... the start of the Mormon protest was a fantastic, positive affair and channeled my anger into a wonderful ecstacy. I understand that people are pissed, but I don't think our anger needs to be channeled into more anger.

I know that's not a good thing for me, at least ... so I hope tonight's shindig is peaceful and not too disruptive.

I'm looking forward to tomorrow morning's early thing at the Mormon Temple, with really no potential to disrupt non-existent traffic ... and putting the target of protest back where it belongs.

The LDS's protestations of being targeted for intimidation are falling on my deaf and laughing ears ... and they are the ones unfortunately stoking my own very deep anger.

Not Afraid

11-07-2008, 10:59 AM

I'm playing a tiny violin for the people of West LA.

Get over it.

Strangler Lewis

11-07-2008, 11:01 AM

She did it again.

Not Afraid

11-07-2008, 11:11 AM

Petition to Re-Open Prop 8.

http://www.petitiononline.com/seg5130/

Strangler Lewis

11-07-2008, 11:13 AM

Petition to Re-Open Prop 8.

http://www.petitiononline.com/seg5130/

And again!

innerSpaceman

11-07-2008, 11:14 AM

I'm playing a tiny violin for the people of West LA.

Get over it.

Pretty much what I've been telling people all morning ... and yet I still don't understand the strategy of pissing people off who are your supporters.

Gemini Cricket

11-07-2008, 11:15 AM

Pretty much what I've been telling people all morning ... and yet I still don't understand the strategy of pissing people off who are your supporters.
Because if you're not pissing someone off the media will pretty much ignore you?

Not Afraid

11-07-2008, 11:16 AM

Bingo!

BarTopDancer

11-07-2008, 11:17 AM

I don't think it's a good idea to piss off supporters. Shut down traffic on a weekend, during non rush-hour times. People of LA should be aware of how much people of LA hate traffic.

But it's done. Hopefully the groups can organize and create large and organized demonstrations that gain support, not alienate its supporters.

I'm hoping to make some of the protests this weekend.

ETA - Brad does have a good point.

Moonliner

11-07-2008, 11:18 AM

Pretty much what I've been telling people all morning ... and yet I still don't understand the strategy of pissing people off who are your supporters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironic).

Yeah. Me neither. Perhaps it's just blind rage.

Alex

11-07-2008, 11:19 AM

innerSpaceman

11-07-2008, 11:21 AM

Not washing with me either. (Not the Arnold petition, though that's also absurd).

There was tons of media at the peaceful part of the protest, and every image I've seen in every newspaper and online was taken then (of course, it being daylight, the pictures were prettier and were more able to capture the Mormon Temple in the background).

Granted, the ongoing protest with street closures into the night got a lot of the continuing and LIVE Coverage!! ... and it sure was noticed.

It was not noticed in a good way. Even the news coverage was Pissed Off Fags. I don't see how that is helpful.

I was really inspired by the photos someone posted in one of these threads of the massive civil rights rallys in Washington D.C. in the 60's. It was the numbers that mattered. They did not stop all activity in the nation's capital. They got noticed by massing and protesting. And that notice was positive. Shut down the city and the notice turns negative.

I understand there's a lot of disagreement and I'm shouting in the wilderness on this one. When a mob gets together, the peaceful route is not most likely.

But I saw it yesterday. A peaceful protest became a mob before my very eyes.

Cadaverous Pallor

11-07-2008, 11:38 AM

I found this on Craigslist - Saddleback Church (http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/pol/909057045.html) on Sunday morning. I did some searching and Rick Warren, the founder of Saddleback, (which is the 4th biggest church in America) told his congregants to vote yes on 8 (http://www.protectmarriage.com/article/nationally-acclaimed-pastor-rick-warren-announces-support-for-proposition-8). I also saw this rally posted on a number of sites. Everyone who diggs, give it a digg! (http://digg.com/politics/Planned_Prop_8_Protest_at_Saddleback_Church_in_Ora nge_County)

There is also a Huntington Beach (http://www.facebook.com/event.php?sid=76582990bf3b25f92c4897f0baecec75&refurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fs.php%3Fq%3 Dprop%2B8%26n%3D67108878%26k%3D400000010%26sf%3Dnf %26init%3Ds%253Aevent%26sid%3D76582990bf3b25f92c48 97f0baecec75&eid=43213545311) Saturday afternoon event on Facebook, though there are only 2 confirmed guests.

I work Saturday, but Sunday morning at a church in OC? That may be irrisistible.

BarTopDancer

11-07-2008, 11:40 AM

No argument from me on the content in that petition. But for the life of me I can't figure out what it is asking Schwarzenegger to do. The only call to action I see is "please read this." Which is fine (thought not exactly much of a petition) but didn't Schwarzenegger already oppose 8?

I emailed the governor's office before the election and this is the reply I received:

Thank you for writing Governor Schwarzenegger regarding Proposition 8. The Governor appreciates hearing comments from California residents on issues that affect our state.

California law prohibits the Governor from using state resources to advocate in favor of or opposed to a measure before California voters. However, it is vital that citizens make informed decisions, and your effort to familiarize yourself with the issues we will face on November 4, 2008, is commendable. For more information on the ballot, please visit the Secretary of State's website at www.sos.ca.gov.

Again, thank you for taking the time to write the Governor on this important election. The Governor values the comments of individuals like you who care about the future of our great state.

Sincerely,

Office of Constituent Affairs

SzczerbiakManiac

11-07-2008, 11:46 AM

On-line petitions are not worth the paper they're printed on. Seriously, they carry no weight whatsoever.

If you want to sign a petition, sign one that will change the CA Constitution to repeal Prop H8.

Alex

11-07-2008, 11:52 AM

I emailed the governor's office before the election and this is the reply I received:

Yeah, he legally couldn't say a position in an email sent from government computers. But he did release his personal position on the propositions and was against Prop 8 (and there were No on 8 commercials at the end quoting him).

BarTopDancer

11-07-2008, 12:07 PM

I found this on Craigslist - Saddleback Church (http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/pol/909057045.html) on Sunday morning. I did some searching and Rick Warren, the founder of Saddleback, (which is the 4th biggest church in America) told his congregants to vote yes on 8 (http://www.protectmarriage.com/article/nationally-acclaimed-pastor-rick-warren-announces-support-for-proposition-8). I also saw this rally posted on a number of sites. Everyone who diggs, give it a digg! (http://digg.com/politics/Planned_Prop_8_Protest_at_Saddleback_Church_in_Ora nge_County)

That is the crowd that was by my office and all over South OC.

There is also a Huntington Beach (http://www.facebook.com/event.php?sid=76582990bf3b25f92c4897f0baecec75&refurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2Fs.php%3Fq%3 Dprop%2B8%26n%3D67108878%26k%3D400000010%26sf%3Dnf %26init%3Ds%253Aevent%26sid%3D76582990bf3b25f92c48 97f0baecec75&eid=43213545311) Saturday afternoon event on Facebook, though there are only 2 confirmed guests.

I can't see facebook at work. Can you post the details of HB?

I work Saturday, but Sunday morning at a church in OC? That may be irrisistible.

I'm all over that. I just need details. Stupid firewalls :(

Ghoulish Delight

11-07-2008, 12:12 PM

This peaceful protest will take place this Sunday (November 9th) at 10AM PST. Please spread the word!! Prop 8 is unfair and unconstitutional.

Why Saddleback?
Rick Warren of Saddleback Church came out publicly in an email to his congregation telling them to Vote Yes on 8.
In exit polling Christians voted 66% for Yes on 8.
Saddleback is also a VERY well known church and one of the largest in the country. It's a great place to have our voices heard and be seen.

Please bring your friends - gay or straight. Christian or not. All who support marriage equality are encouraged to come show their support in front of one of the largest churches in America. Bring your signs if you have them! Address is 1 Saddleback Pkwy, Lake Forest.

HB details:

Date:Saturday, November 8, 2008
Time:2:00pm - 5:00pm
Location:Huntington Beach Pear
Street:PCH and Main
City/Town:Huntington Beach, CA

We will be holding a peaceful rally to oppose Proposition 8 and show our support for having this discriminatory statute overturned this Saturday, November 8th at the Huntington Beach Pier at 2 pm. We need to ban together to show we will not let this issue rest. Civil rights are being denied to same sex couples in California and we need to let our elected officials know we aren't going to tolerate it. Please pass the word on and join us this Saturday.

SacTown Chronic

11-07-2008, 12:16 PM

Saddleback sounds a bit gay cowboy-ish to me.

innerSpaceman

11-07-2008, 12:20 PM

Paging Isaac and Gemini Cricket as Heath and Jake. Saddleback Protest. Stat.

Chernabog

11-07-2008, 01:21 PM

Hmmmm BJ and I may have to go to that.

With a "Jesus Was Gay" sign? ;) I kid, I kid.

Strangler Lewis

11-07-2008, 01:57 PM

In his time, everyone accepted that Jesus was married to Murray Magdalene, who was actually a lawyer. Somehow, as the story was passed down, Murray became Mary, and lawyer became prostitute.

Isaac

11-07-2008, 02:06 PM

Paging Isaac and Gemini Cricket as Heath and Jake. Saddleback Protest. Stat.
Oh my! Two more local protest I must attend!
Plus there's GothDay @ DL on Sunday.

Busy weekend of fun :D

Moonliner

11-07-2008, 02:06 PM

In his time, everyone accepted that Jesus was married to Murray Magdalene, who was actually a lawyer. Somehow, as the story was passed down, Murray became Mary, and lawyer became prostitute.

Given that kids read the bible, I can see wanting to clean up the story so the switch from lawyer to prostitute makes sense.

Kevy Baby

11-07-2008, 02:30 PM

...and lawyer became prostitute.Same thing really

Morrigoon

11-07-2008, 03:03 PM