A Prop 8 challenge for swankers

[Morrigoon]

Okay guys, I don't know about you, but I'm getting worried about this election. I think it's time for some grass-roots efforts to get the word out there about voting No on Prop 8. So here's my challenge to you:

Create a flyer (your own or one shared by another LoTer) that reminds people to vote No. Could be as simple as a circle slash with Prop 8 in the center, or as detailed as you want, I don't care, as long as it reminds people why it's so important to vote no.
Go to Kinko's, make 100 copies of your flyer, and distribute all of them in a manner of your choosing (on car windshields in the Target parking lot, on your neighbors' doorsteps, hand them out in person in a public place, whatever).
Then post here that you've done it.

I haven't got much in the way of prizes, but I will give a reindeer Mickey ear hat to everyone who completes the challenge (While supplies last. Yes, the ones from last year's Xmas party).

Feel free to use this thread to discuss/share flyer and distribution ideas.

My hope is that we'll all (myself included) feel inspired to continue the effort and spread the word even further than the initial hundred. But I can tell you from experience that handing out more than a hundred flyers is a lot to bite off, so please start with that, and if you still feel inspired, then go make more copies, etc.

[Kevy Baby]

One can go here (http://www.noonprop8.com/action/spread-the-word) for ideas.

[Gemini Cricket]

I think that's a great idea.
Even if it's just as little as you putting a bumper sticker on your car, everything helps.

:)

[Morrigoon]

I think that's a great idea.
Even if it's just as little as you putting a bumper sticker on your car, everything helps.

:)
Or taped in my car's window :)

[Morrigoon]

Oooh, they have a No on Prop 8 store too: http://www.noonprop8store.com/eshop/10Browse.asp

(I know that technically belongs in the other gay marriage thread, but whatever, it's from Kevy's link)

[innerSpaceman]

I'll be glad to help out as soon as my life becomes available again ... in 10 days.

[Morrigoon]

Any time, any place (well, any time prior to the closing of the polls)

[Andrew]

Someone make a clever sign/flyer and upload a PDF. I'll participate in distributing but I have no artistic talent to speak of.

[Gemini Cricket]

So on the Metro, on my way to the Ahmanson's Theatre last night, a No on 8 canvasser stopped me. Maybe 20 years old or so. So, I started grilling him about what he knew about Prop 8 and what it meant. He knew what he was talking about, which was great. I told him I had already voted No on 8. He offered to give me stickers, I told him I already had one but I said for him to save them for someone who doesn't have any. I thanked him for what he was doing.
I'm glad he knew his stuff.
I'm not so glad knowing that I'm turning into one of those snarky old men who would quiz young whipersnapers about what they know.
:D

[BarTopDancer]

I like the line of thought directed at straight people for Prop 8: "can I vote on your right to marry"

[Gemini Cricket]

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsIoPmGJmmw) is the new ad for No on 8.
It looks like it just went up on YouTube.
It only has one comment on it (mine), there is room for more.
:)

[JWBear]

Gibbonsinthelibrary???

[Ghoulish Delight]

Saw that one on TV last night.

[Gemini Cricket]

Gibbonsinthelibrary???
Yes, my good man. Gibbonsinthelibrary.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b268/braddoc310/n813838539_688173_6754.jpg

[lashbear]

batsinthebelfrey perhaps ? :p

[Gemini Cricket]

batsinthebelfrey perhaps ? :p
Most definitely.
:D

[wendybeth]

I know I can't vote up here in Wa, but I have gotten into several arguments over this with people, most notably my conservative clients. Since I hold sharp pointy shears I always win.:D

[Ghoulish Delight]

Ugh. You know what's most disheartening about the fact that Prop 8 is now ahead in the polls? The demographic that's moved the most towards supporting it is young voters. WTF happened?

[Betty]

Frankly I think the new No on 8 ad isn't all that convincing.

The yes on 8 ads are all into alarming people and they need to address the fallacies that the ads portray in order to "fight back".

I think the people that are bent on voting Yes don't care about people being treated equally under the law and those ads won't have any impact. They want to vote yet because the Yes on 8 ads have tricked them into thinking all sorts of terrible things will happen.

[Moonliner]

Ugh. You know what's most disheartening about the fact that Prop 8 is now ahead in the polls? The demographic that's moved the most towards supporting it is young voters. WTF happened?

Young people's opinions are easier to sway by making crass appeals to emotion?

[Gemini Cricket]

I'm not for certain about the young vote and what that poll means.

Here is something I posted on Facebook to a friend of mine who is frustrated about Prop 8.

R, the Yes on 8 people have more money. They have been funded by bigger groups. LDS church, Knights of Columbus, etc.

I've lived through this twice already: once in Hawai'i in 1998 and once in 2005 in Boston during the whole aftermath of the legalization of gay marriage. It's going to get uglier as Nov. 4 gets closer.

The one thing both sides need to realize is that life goes on no matter what happens with Prop 8.

The Yes people need to realize too that the day after Prop 8 passes (if it passes), it will be slapped with a lawsuit. And the whole process happens again.

The No people need to think about who is supporting Yes on 8 and remember these businesses and organizations. In the future, when these people ask for support remember that their answer to them should still be "No". If a religious organization, like the LDS church asks for support of some cause, find a like minded cause and support them instead. The LDS church and other homophobic religious organizations will never see a drop of my support or money. Ever.

It is always disheartening to see a Yes on 8 commercial. But remember, no matter how loud they are or how many signs they have, they are not on the side of what is right. Their children and their children's children will realize how wrong they were on this issue and their legacy will become one of intolerance and hypocrisy. On that, I can be certain.For me, I am not too worried about what the outcome of 8 will be.
Honestly, I'm not.
If 8 passes, it will be challenged.
If 8 fails, it will be challenged.
Eventually, there will be marriage equality. No doubt about that.

[Kevy Baby]

Where can I get No on 8 yard signs? I just need a couple, but I want them to be highly visible.

[Ruthie]

"It is always disheartening to see a Yes on 8 commercial. But remember, no matter how loud they are or how many signs they have, they are not on the side of what is right. Their children and their children's children will realize how wrong they were on this issue and their legacy will become one of intolerance and hypocrisy. On that, I can be certain."

So true, Gemini Cricket. You sound like a very wise person.

[JWBear]

Where can I get No on 8 yard signs? I just need a couple, but I want them to be highly visible.

here (http://www.noonprop8store.com/eshop/10Browse.asp)

[Kevy Baby]

here (http://www.noonprop8store.com/eshop/10Browse.asp)Thank you. But I don't think I would get them in time to make a difference. I was hoping I could find some place in the OC that I could swing by and pick them up.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Thank you. But I don't think I would get them in time to make a difference. I was hoping I could find some place in the OC that I could swing by and pick them up.Perhaps one of the democratic party offices have 'em. The one I know of is on Chapman by our place, but there are others scattered around.

[Kevy Baby]

Perhaps one of the democratic party offices have 'em. The one I know of is on Chapman by our place, but there are others scattered around.Good idea. I will check there.

[BarTopDancer]

My friend is working the phone banks Thursday. I will ask and see if he can pick some stuff up if you'll be in the area before the election.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Ugh, I'm finding myself having such an angry reaction to the Yes On 8 folks. Today I was in a store and the fvcking KoC ad came played on the radio station that was tuned in. I had an urge to find and smash the radio.

Yesterday I drove past a bunch of people waving Yes On 8 signs, some with pictures of a mom and dad hugging and kissing their sweet innocent child. I sat at a red light across from them for a while, and by the time it turned green and I could pass them, I had to stop myself from rolling down the window and shouting horrible things at them.

Frustratingly, once I got past them and calmed down, all I wanted to do is go back and talk to them reasonably, but I know that I'd just get angry again if I tried and it would not turn out well.

Sigh. I don't respond well to fear and hate.

[BarTopDancer]

Ugh, I'm finding myself having such an angry reaction to the Yes On 8 folks. Today I was in a store and the fvcking KoC ad came played on the radio station that was tuned in. I had an urge to find and smash the radio.

Yesterday I drove past a bunch of people waving Yes On 8 signs, some with pictures of a mom and dad hugging and kissing their sweet innocent child. I sat at a red light across from them for a while, and by the time it turned green and I could pass them, I had to stop myself from rolling down the window and shouting horrible things at them.

Frustratingly, once I got past them and calmed down, all I wanted to do is go back and talk to them reasonably, but I know that I'd just get angry again if I tried and it would not turn out well.

Sigh. I don't respond well to fear and hate.

I'm finding myself doing the same thing.

I saw some No on 8 people out with handmade signs. I'm really tempted to do that one day, after work before the election.

I also think that I'm going to end up ending a few friendships over this, I don't think I can be friends with people who think it's ok to take away rights.

[katiesue]

My area has become literally plastered with Yes on 8 in the past week. Yard signs, bumper stickers, idiots on street corners waiving signs. This morning I wanted to stop the car and yell at them, at the very least flip them off. Not that either of these are very mature or get me anywhere but it's crazy how many signs and things I see.

[Moonliner]

My area has become literally plastered with Yes on 8 in the past week. Yard signs, bumper stickers, idiots on street corners waiving signs. This morning I wanted to stop the car and yell at them, at the very least flip them off. Not that either of these are very mature or get me anywhere but it's crazy how many signs and things I see.

I wonder, do these people see Prop-8 as a gay rights issue, or a freedom of religion issue?

It would make a vast difference in how I would confront them on it.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Judging from the tone of the ads, it's being framed as a freedom of religion issue. They're being "forced to tolerate" (oh no, tolerance!!) something they "morally object" to. And "churches could lose their tax exempt status" or be sued!

[katiesue]

All the materials are from the same orginization - which I can't remember right now. Some of the people holding signs says "Yes on 8 = Freedom of Speech, and Yes on 8 = Restoration of Marriage" There are a few other slogans that I can't remember.

Edited to add - here it is Protect Marriage (http://www.protectmarriage.com/)

[BarTopDancer]

There should be new signs with "protect marriage" and then use images of Brittany and her 2 marriages, Madonna and her marriages, McCain and his affair, etc...

[Ghoulish Delight]

That and "protect the children" with some twisted, "The institution of marriage exists only for the benefit of children, and children should be raised by their biological parents, so we need to protect marriage." Nevermind that adoption, divorce, in-vetro, marriage between sterile people, etc. etc. would remain perfectly legal. :rolleyes:

[JWBear]

How is this a free speech issue?

[Gemini Cricket]

There was a really horrible "Save Traditional Marriage" ad that played in Hawai'i in '98. It showed the idiot who headed the campaign standing there with his dog. (I'm sure you can guess where the ad went from there.) But he said, "If gays are allowed to marry, then will I be able to marry my dog?"
It was so very degrading and petty.
I feel sorry for how dumb some people are about this issue. I'm no rocket scientist, but I ain't no buffoon... unless I'm being buffoonish on purpose...

[Ghoulish Delight]

But he said, "If gays are allowed to marry, then will I be able to marry my dog?"Hmm, I think I'd respond, "Be my guest, dog fvcker."

[katiesue]

I know a lot of these groups have issues with the word “marriage”. Now correct me if I’m wrong but to my understanding in some churches you’re not considered “married” unless you have a ceremony in that particular church with a priest. I know this is true for Catholics. Now if 8 were to get voted down you still couldn’t be gay and “married” in the Catholic Church’s eyes because they wouldn’t perform the ceremony, which is their right. I know many people who are Catholic who were not married in the church but elsewhere and unless you later go in and have your “marriage” blessed, to the church it’s a “civil union” anyway. So I don’t get the threat or problem. If your particular religion doesn’t want to perform a gay marriage based upon it’s beliefs then no problem. Why does it matter anymore than if someone goes to Vegas or City Hall which aren’t usually religious ceremonies anyway but civil ones?

My Aunts suggestion was that we go the British way. You have a legal ceremony and then should you want to, a religious ceremony at whatever institution you subscribe to. Takes the religion aspect out of it.

[Ghoulish Delight]

There is absolutely nothing that voting against prop 8 will do to change a church's tax-exempt status nor its right to choose who it will and will not perform marriages for. Period. The pro-8 is utter nonsense and outright lies. It's beyond me how it's even legal to use false information in a political campaign.

[BarTopDancer]

I heard Pepperdine issues a cease and desist order for the "professor" in one of the Yes on 8 ads. I can't find a link for the story though :(

[Gemini Cricket]

A pastor volunteers at a phone bank in conservative-leaning Orange County on Oct. 16 to urge Californians to vote no on Proposition 8, which would outlaw same-sex marriages in the state.Source (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1852263,00.html)

[BarTopDancer]

I think I am going to be more pissed if 8 passes than I am going to be if McCain wins.

[CoasterMatt]

Here's (http://graphic.pepperdine.edu/news/2008/2008-10-02-gay-marriage.htm) the story on the Pepperdine professor.

[Morrigoon]

Okay, here's a rough draft of my flyer (Times New Roman, 18-point type for Header and Footer (bolded here), 14-point type for the body):

What is Proposition 8
And why should you vote NO?

This election season, there is one thing on the ballot with even greater long-term consequences for Californians than just deciding who gets to mess up Washington for the next 4 years.

Proposition 8 is an assault on personal rights. It is an attempt by out-of-state special interests to amend OUR state constitution to make discriminating against gays legal. It not only permits, but requires the state to treat gays like second-class citizens by refusing them the right to get married to their chosen spouse, therefore depriving them of all the rights and privileges that come with marriage and are considered essential for the efficient operation of a combined household. Domestic partnerships are NOT the same, and only convey a small fraction of the rights and privileges afforded to everyone else.

If Proposition 8 passes, over twelve thousand marriages will be nullified. Tens of thousands of future marriages will be forbidden.

41 years ago, in the landmark civil rights case, Loving vs. Virginia, the US Supreme Court ended race-based legal restrictions on marriage. As absurd as bans on interracial marriage sound to us today, so will Proposition 8 sound to our children and grandchildren 40 years from now. And just as you should be embarrassed for previous generations’ racism, so you should be embarrassed for today’s bigots, attempting to write their own phobias into the state’s Constitution. There is no difference between voting to ban gay marriage today and voting to ban interracial marriage half a century ago. Proponents of Proposition 8 are using the same arguments that were used to support anti-miscegenation laws in the early part of the last century. As we are reminded every Martin Luther King Day, separate is not equal. The only way to treat opposite-sex unions the same as same-sex ones without allowing same-sex marriage is to eliminate legal marriage entirely, changing all current marriages into civil unions as well. If you really want to protect marriage, protect it for everyone.

Proposition 8 is hate legislation.

Vote NO on Prop Hate!

[Gemini Cricket]

Okay, here's a rough draft of my flyer...
I love it.
Visible mojo for Morrigoon.
:)

[Morrigoon]

Too wordy, but I can't help myself. And maybe logic will reach some folks.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I'd try to shorten it a bit, and call out the lies from the other side.

Use bullet points. People respond to bullet points.

* No church will be forced to perform marriages they don't approve of
* No on Prop 8 make life easier for the families of countless adopted children.
* Churches will maintain tax exempt status.
* No on Prop 8 protects the institution of marriage for everyone

[Tom]

Now if 8 were to get voted down you still couldn’t be gay and “married” in the Catholic Church’s eyes because they wouldn’t perform the ceremony, which is their right. I know many people who are Catholic who were not married in the church but elsewhere and unless you later go in and have your “marriage” blessed, to the church it’s a “civil union” anyway. So I don’t get the threat or problem.

This is a very logical response to an illogical position. Favoring prop 8 comes from fear and hatred of gay people. If it were otherwise, then truthful and logical arguments could be offered in its defense. The false and logically twisted arguments that its supporters make are obvious covers for their true reasons, which are not considered politically acceptable to be spoken of openly.

[Chernabog]

I know many people who are Catholic who were not married in the church but elsewhere and unless you later go in and have your “marriage” blessed, to the church it’s a “civil union” anyway. So I don’t get the threat or problem.

The threat and problem is that the church thinks that gay people are sinful and that gay relationships are an abomination. Therefore, they will try to block all attempts to validate gay relationships. As marriage is the ultimate form of relationship validity (both socially and legally), the religious idiots want to block it for the same reason that we want it. Having gay marriage legal means that it is truly okay to be gay, and that scares the living crap out of their homophobic arses.

[BarTopDancer]

A little more info on my Twitter post -

There were 7 or 8 if not more No on 8 signs along the path I took home from the freeway. This path was basically off the 133 down to just before Sand Canyon. Not a super busy road. Last week I noticed a bunch of No on 8 signs placed along the path. Yesterday I noticed a few of the No on 8 signs missing. Didn't think anything of it, as I could have just overlooked them. Today I am certain they have all been removed. Other political signs are up, just the No on 8 signs have been removed. There are no Yes on 8 signs up (there weren't before either).

[Chernabog]

Really it is very depressing -- I *had* thought that we had made great strides in the past ten years (and we have, don't get me wrong), but I thought we were past the point of such blatant homophobia in California by so many people (there will always be bigoted a-holes out there... but so MANY just scares me).

[BarTopDancer]

If I can get my hands on more, I'll put them up again. I don't have monies to buy them right now though :(

Do networks (regular and cable) have to accept campaign commercials for air time?

[Kevy Baby]

A little more info on my Twitter postCrap: now we have to cross reference between Twitter and LoT?

My head hurts.

[Morrigoon]

I'm so angry over Prop 8 that it's starting to affect me physically. I'm literally fatigued and sickened every time I see/hear yes on 8 ads. My big mistake was earlier today when I was looking for info on the percentage of funding behind Prop 8 that came from the Mormon church and other out-of-state interests, and I happened upon a discussion following an article in the Deseret News. I shouldn't have kept reading, but I did. I can't wait for this to be over.

[Prudence]

The hatred in the radio ads surprises and saddens me, but honestly I'm just glad I'm down here, registered to vote, and have the privilege to cast my vote against Prop 8.

[MouseWife]

Morri~I know what you mean. Like I said, I don't know how I'll face people after this. And if somehow it passes? That stupid commercial that says they need to listen to the people; hey, it passed. When things arne't the way they want it, it isn't right.

I think the stealing of the signs is cowardly and shows they fear that they are going to lose.

Although, I understand that the Yes on 8 are being stolen, also. I think that is because the signs are rude.

Yeah, it makes me sick, too.

Bible schmible. Love and respect your brothers and sisters. That is what God wants, right? Shame on those who would deny anyone what they have.

Can't you get free signs somewhere? I wanted to get some Obama ones and No on 8 but I haven't had a chance....just thought of it today...I wonder where I got the idea. :D :snap:

Oh yes, Pru, the radio ads turn my stomach, I feel the hatred. I can't imagine how someone feels who this is directed personally to. And don't tell me it isn't personal. You have to put a face to it, you can't just call it a proposition.

[Morrigoon]

You do have to buy the signs... I paid $5 for my Obama sign from the Santa Ana office, but I overheard tonight that they're asking $8 for them from the Lake Forest office, and that she has trouble getting the main offices to give her any at all. For No on 8 signs, she said you have to order them online from NoOn8.com and that they arrive in about 2-3 days, they come from LA.

Pru: I'm so glad you're here and got registered :)

I'm thinking of buying posterboard and making my own signs.

[BarTopDancer]

Grrr. A NEW Yes on 8 ad, all about the "a prince can marry a prince" saying that gay marriage will be taught in schools.

The No on 8 campaign better get moving with ads to refute this.

I have a very bad feeling that this thing is going to pass and it makes me sick.

[MouseWife]

I've heard that commercial.

It is twisting something that happened. I really doubt that they aimed to teach that, kids aren't necessarily taught marriage, they are taught family. Perhaps one of the students has gay parents or had a question about it. Perhaps that child lives in a home where they make everything voodoo.

I don't buy that b.s. commercial. And, the way they say 'It really happened!'

And, thanks about the news about the signs.

I need to find where to go locally. I hear that you can pick up Obama shirts there....

[Not Afraid]

I simply cannot understand why anyone is for Prop. 8. No one is taking away the rights of churches. Churches can believe and accept whatever they want to believe and accept. Church is a choice.

Gay couples already adopt or have children, raise families, have their own children, buy property together - share everything that a married couple also share with any of the other legal benefits a married couple. Why shouldn't they have the same legal protection that other people do?

Marriage is a generic term shared by people both religious who care to marry in a sacred ceremony and those who simply want the many benefits that a married couple enjoy since they are already joined in a partnership. Why would anyone have an objection to these benefits:



joint parenting, adoption,foster care, custody, and visitation (including non-biological parents);
status as next-of-kin for hospital visits and medical decisions where one partner is too ill to be competent;
joint insurance policies for home, auto and health;
dissolution and divorce protections such as community property and child support;
immigration and residency for partners from other countries;
inheritance automatically in the absence of a will;
joint leases with automatic renewal rights in the event one partner dies or leaves the house or apartment;
inheritance of jointly-owned real and personal property through the right of survivorship (which avoids the time and expense and taxes in probate);
benefits such as annuities, pension plans, Social Security, and Medicare;
spousal exemptions to property tax increases upon the death of one partner who is a co-owner of the home;
veterans' discounts on medical care, education, and home loans; joint filing of tax returns;
joint filing of customs claims when traveling;
wrongful death benefits for a surviving partner and children;
bereavement or sick leave to care for a partner or child;
decision-making power with respect to whether a deceased partner will be cremated or not and where to bury him or her;
crime victims' recovery benefits;More here (http://www.religioustolerance.org/mar_bene.htm) (I think I have posted this before)

I haven't gotten into any arguments over Prop 8 and it is unlikely that will happen too often in Long Beach - although I have seen a few Yes on 8 signs.

Yes on 8 just doesn't make sense.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I simply cannot understand

Fear, hate, prejudice, and lies.

[Not Afraid]

Fear, hate, prejudice, and lies.

What is this - the middle ages?

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I had a coworker say she couldn't decide how to vote on it. She said she thinks gov't should stay out of marriage. I said well, then vote no. She said she just couldn't pick and abstained on that one, and had already mailed her ballot.

She's such a nice person too, but man, am I livid. :mad:

I brought it up with another coworker because now I feel stupid for not talking about it sooner. Hopefully I can sway him, he seems kind of on the fence about it too.

[Morrigoon]

My standpoint is, I prefer an abstention to a Yes. Abstaining doesn't directly help gay marriage, but remembering that every yes vote requires an extra no vote to counter it, eliminating yeses will help the cause indirectly.

For people who can't be convinced to vote No, I'll settle for eliminating their yes by convincing them to abstain.

[BarTopDancer]

I'm so excited! I managed to convince one of my 'going to vote yes based upon the word marriage' co-workers that marriage is a verb these days, and allowing same-sex marriage isn't going to do anything to weaken her marriage. She thought about it over the weekend, and decided that she couldn't take away the rights of her Aunt. She voted no. Her husband couldn't get away from the term marriage and voted yes. She tried to convince him otherwise, but he just couldn't get around the term. If it was to allow marriage benefits and to call them civil unions (for everyone) he would have voted no.

I also made my own NO on 8 signs. Using the actual design of the signs I added white space and the verbiage "Please don't take away the rights of my friends". I'm going to make a few more "Don't Hate. Don't Discriminate" and if I'm feeling ornery "Can I vote on your right to marry?" and "marriage should be protected from the 'straights'. Brittany anyone? How about Madonna? Or McCain and his affair?".

[Not Afraid]

Why do I find it funny that Madonna - a fag hag if there ever is one - is being used to mock straight marriage.

[Morrigoon]

I'm so excited! I managed to convince one of my 'going to vote yes based upon the word marriage' co-workers that marriage is a verb these days, and allowing same-sex marriage isn't going to do anything to weaken her marriage. She thought about it over the weekend, and decided that she couldn't take away the rights of her Aunt. She voted no. Her husband couldn't get away from the term marriage and voted yes. She tried to convince him otherwise, but he just couldn't get around the term. If it was to allow marriage benefits and to call them civil unions (for everyone) he would have voted no.

I also made my own NO on 8 signs. Using the actual design of the signs I added white space and the verbiage "Please don't take away the rights of my friends". I'm going to make a few more "Don't Hate. Don't Discriminate" and if I'm feeling ornery "Can I vote on your right to marry?" and "marriage should be protected from the 'straights'. Brittany anyone? How about Madonna? Or McCain and his affair?".

Visible mojo, BTD!

[BarTopDancer]

Why do I find it funny that Madonna - a fag hag if there ever is one - is being used to mock straight marriage.

I'm naming public figures out who probably don't have type of marriage that the Yes on 8 people are thinking of when they say protect marriage. Doesn't matter that she's a hag. They want to protect traditional family values. Madonna is anything but traditional.

Hetero's have done a great job of making a mockery out of the "institute of marriage". Divorce rate is around 50%.

[Kevy Baby]

Well; marriage is the prime cause of divorce. Did you know that every single divorce was preceded by marriage?

Shocking!

[Strangler Lewis]

I think part of the opposition is homophobic, but I also think part of it stems from the usual Joe Sixpack insecurity that liberals/gays think that they will somehow have better, hipper marriages than straights. Therefore, the anti-8 groups should run ads featuring gay couples arguing about money, fighting in front of the children, beating on each other and so on.

[Betty]

I had a discussion about 8 with my teenage daughter yesterday. You know -we've talked a lot about the presedentail candidates but not the prop's. She was saying she would vote yes which rather alarmed me - so we discussed why I was voting no. She kept saying - didn't know that - really - that's not fair.

I hope that if the subject comes up with her friends, she can voice these facts. They are freshmen but will be ready or nearly ready to vote in the next election for president in 4 years. And who knows, maybe if she does mention something to her friends, they might ask their parents about it.

Then I think - ha! Like that will ever happen. Teenagers standing up against their friends for a cause that doesn't directly affect them at their very moment in time and that those teens would then go and (gasp) talk to their parents. Dream on.

But at least we were able to discuss it.

[Morrigoon]

Nonsense, teens LOVE to take on a cause they understand little about :) especially when influenced by a charismatic peer who convinces them that their rights are at stake.

[Gemini Cricket]

Despite tough economic times, an amazing 59,000 Mormon families have succumbed to substantial pressure from church elders, and have given huge amounts of money to California's Yes on 8 campaign. These Mormon families have given a staggering $18.6 million since June 1st and the total grows daily. This represents 77% of all money raised and 88% of all individual money raised (not including funds from the big out of state organizations). In Arizona where a gay marriage ban is back on the ballot after losing just two years ago, Mormon families have contributed nearly all of the $6.9 million to the Yes on 102 campaign. What is going on here?Source (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/fred-karger/mormon-power-grab-its-tea_b_136018.html)

[Kevy Baby]

Nonsense, teens LOVE to take on a cause they understand little about :) especially when influenced by a charismatic peer who convinces them that their rights are at stake.Of course, if one disagreed with the influencing party, then that influencer would be viewed as a brainwashing monster.

[BarTopDancer]

See here's the thing.

If 8 passes it's going to court.
If 8 fails it's going to end up back on the ballot.

This election isn't the end all of the issue.

[MouseWife]

GC~ Sadly I think people believe following whatever their church says will get them into heaven.

The teen issue~ my son 'debated' with his close friends the last election; over abortion, the war, religion, you name it. He stood up for his beliefs, ones that I haven't brainwashed him with, I would say he has more enlightened me than I him.

But, it was difficult. It really did cause a rift {like how I feel now, probably, but now it is on a larger amount of people} with these people, some he's known since he was 4 years old.

I hope that your daughter can stand up and voice her opinion but I would still {{{hug}}} her for opening up her mind and her heart. Unfortunately, a lot of kids parents are worried about telling their kids that it is okay to be different and that is what she gets stuck with.

[katiesue]

Madz is 12 and in her enlightened, informed opinion Prop 8 is Stupid. When the first No on 8 ad came out, the wedding one, we were watching TV and she said she didn't get it. So I explained that it was trying to say what if people you loved had all these obsticales in their way and couldn't marry who they wanted to. She kind of got that then I told her it was for gay marriage. To be honest I don't think it had occured to her that you couldn't get married if you were gay. So I explained what if GC or Isaac or ISM found someone they loved but they're not allowed to get married because they're gay. "Well that's just stupid". So now when any Prop 8 ads come on her comment is "it's Stupid that they can't get married".

[MouseWife]

I think what you did, katiesue, putting a face to the issue, is key.

Unfortunately, I think people pretend they don't see things.

My aunt told us she and her son were debating the issue and she told him that you had to support the 'no'. She said that back when she was a child in grade school, {oh, I'd the '50s? not sure what part}, the principal came to their house and told their father if the kids spoke Spanish in class they would be sent home. So, she said, don't let that happen. Don't give anyone control over your life.

[Gemini Cricket]

So now when any Prop 8 ads come on her comment is "it's Stupid that they can't get married".
Madz is so very awesome. And so is Mom!
:)

[Morrigoon]

Well, doing a prop 8 search on twitter (http://search.twitter.com/search?q=prop+8) is encouraging, but we all know that only taking a sample from the wired world is not representative.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Awesome. Just got handed a letter from an openly gay coworker asking to vote against 8 (in which I learned he was married in '04 in SF to his partner). I of course told him I already was. It was in an envelope with my name on it, so I assume he's only handing them to people whom he has a working relationship with and is not blanketing the company, but good for him for doing something!


ETA: Heh, also learned that he was a practicing devout Mormon for 30 years.

[Prudence]

I object to the idea of amending any constitution to limit standard rights for particular groups of people. Generally constitutional changes are reserved for specifically enumerating rights.

[innerSpaceman]

Which will, in fact, be the basis of the lawsuit filed if Prop H8 passes. There's some sort of precedent which holds the Constitution cannot be amended by ballot initiatives for the purpose of taking away Constutitional rights ... or some such thing.

[scaeagles]

The problem, as I see it, is (and I'm assuming that it would be the same as the federal Constitution) that there is no limitation to what can be an amendment. I would guess that if enough people voted for it, one could amend the constitution declaring that chickens have voting rights and the owners have the power to vote on behalf of their chickens (thereby reducing the voting power of non-chicken owners).

[BarTopDancer]

A little more info on my Twitter post -

There were 7 or 8 if not more No on 8 signs along the path I took home from the freeway. This path was basically off the 133 down to just before Sand Canyon. Not a super busy road. Last week I noticed a bunch of No on 8 signs placed along the path. Yesterday I noticed a few of the No on 8 signs missing. Didn't think anything of it, as I could have just overlooked them. Today I am certain they have all been removed. Other political signs are up, just the No on 8 signs have been removed. There are no Yes on 8 signs up (there weren't before either).

The signs have been replaced and re-done. They now say "this sign has been torn down [number] times. Stop the hate. No on 8. With a print out of the Irvine municipal code that it is illegal to remove political signs.

[innerSpaceman]

scaeagles, there's a limit on what can be amended BY BALLOT MEASURE to the California Constitution. I've seen the case law on it.

That's not to say there isn't any conflicting case law. But there will be a lawsuit on that basis if the measure passes.

[BarTopDancer]

From what I understand, amendments cannot be made based upon vote. Only the legislation can make them.

[Kevy Baby]

There's some sort of precedent which holds the Constitution cannot be amended by ballot initiatives for the purpose of taking away Constitutional rights ... or some such thing.Now THERE'S a solid legal argument if I have ever heard one!

:)

[innerSpaceman]

BTD, Constitutional amendments can be made by ballot initiative. What's at issue is whether there is a limit to what types of amendment. As I said, case law exists setting precedent that Constitutional rights cannot be eliminated by ballot measure vote. And just because there may (or may not) be conflicting case law does not make it a squishy legal argument, Kevy ... just an argument. The courts will decide.

[BarTopDancer]

BTD, Constitutional amendments can be made by ballot initiative. What's at issue is whether there is a limit to what types of amendment. As I said, case law exists setting precedent that Constitutional rights cannot be eliminated by ballot measure vote. And just because there may (or may not) be conflicting case law does not make it a squishy legal argument, Kevy ... just an argument. The courts will decide.

Thank you!

[Morrigoon]

The whole point of having a constitution is to prevent a simple majority from voting away the rights of a minority on a whim.

[innerSpaceman]

Exactly. Which is why I think the legal challenge to any Prop H8 passage will be on very firm ground.

[Gemini Cricket]

I know, it seems like you can find a poll somewhere, anywhere to support your take on something but this I found interesting:
The proposed ban, known as Proposition 8, is opposed by 52 percent of those likely to vote, with 44 percent in favor, according to a poll by the Public Policy Institute of California. The ban is opposed by two-thirds of Democrats in a state where Senator Barack Obama holds a lead of 23 percentage points over Republican Challenger John McCain, the poll found.Source (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a3x03.v53vLo&refer=us)
Honestly, I don't know what to believe. But here's to hoping...

[Strangler Lewis]

I think the difference is between whether you have an amendment to the constitution or a revision of the constitution. Revisions have to be submitted to the voters by the legislature. Amendments do not. There is certainly case law on what constitutes a revision, but I don't have it at the tip of my tongue.

[Chernabog]

One would hope that an amendment which takes away a Constitutionally-granted fundamental right of a minority (which normally must be looked at per the In Re Marriage cases under the strict scrutiny standard) would constitute a "revision".

Again... I need to review the case law and see what sorts of examples are out there, because I don't usually delve into that area.

[Chernabog]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hommarl8.htm

^^ Some interesting stuff in there.

Just FYI, the last poll shows Prop 8 being defeated 52% to 44%. Great news, and new commercials with the (or a) Superintendent of public schools telling voters about the lies of the Yes on 8 people.

Last night I went to a house party that raised over $4000. (in the raffle I won a Barack Obama shirt, and BJ won a $375 photography session woot woot!). They said that there has been more money raised by the No on 8 people than on any other LGBT issue (I think they said in either CA history or US history). But of course we are being outspent by the Mormons. How they feel SO PASSIONATELY about taking away other people's rights is plain sick to me....

Please everyone, keep telling your friends about this!!

[Ghoulish Delight]

I wonder. If it does pass and it is upheld, I could certainly see the rise of another ballot prop, an amendment that would repeal the prop 8 amendment.

[Not Afraid]

I haven't found one person in my client base who is a Yes on 8 person. I love Long Beach.

[innerSpaceman]

Apparently the LHC people are organizing a costume thingy for the WeHo Halloween Carnival where they all dress up as No on 8 signs.

I hope I run into them. :D

[Gemini Cricket]

I've only seen one Yes sign in Burbank so far. But then again, I'm right by three big movie studios.

[Chernabog]

http://www.noonprop8.com/

WOOT there's the ad I'm talking about. This is more of what we need (message from the California Superintendent of Schools)

[Morrigoon]

One would hope that an amendment which takes away a Constitutionally-granted fundamental right of a minority (which normally must be looked at per the In Re Marriage cases under the strict scrutiny standard) would constitute a "revision".

Again... I need to review the case law and see what sorts of examples are out there, because I don't usually delve into that area.
There is case law to support that marriage is a fundamental right protected under "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness". I don't remember the case name but it had to do with prisoners.

There is case law to support that protections afforded to racial, religious, and gender minorities is to also be applied to sexual orientation. Again, I no longer have a record of the case name. Although this I'm sure you can find easily.

Then of course there's Loving vs. Virginia, which nullified anti-miscegenation laws (eg: legalized interracial marriage)

And Brown vs. Board of Education, which we all know establishes that separate is not equal.

Dang, I used 5 cases in the paper I wrote, can't remember what the 5th case was for, probably a weaker supporting argument. Of all the things I wish I hadn't thrown out from college, its the physical copy of this paper I miss the most (since the digital was lost in a hard drive crash)

[Chernabog]

There is case law to support that marriage is a fundamental right protected under "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness". I don't remember the case name but it had to do with prisoners.

There is case law to support that protections afforded to racial, religious, and gender minorities is to also be applied to sexual orientation. Again, I no longer have a record of the case name. Although this I'm sure you can find easily.

Then of course there's Loving vs. Virginia, which nullified anti-miscegenation laws (eg: legalized interracial marriage)

And Brown vs. Board of Education, which we all know establishes that separate is not equal.

Dang, I used 5 cases in the paper I wrote, can't remember what the 5th case was for, probably a weaker supporting argument. Of all the things I wish I hadn't thrown out from college, its the physical copy of this paper I miss the most (since the digital was lost in a hard drive crash)

However, you are talking about federal cases there (which in certain instances DO control if there's a conflict between state and federal, which is too complicated to go into here). This is a state law matter for right now (though it will ultimately be a federal matter -- and once Scalia and Thomas are dead or retire, the US Supremes will hopefully fall on the correct side of fundamental human rights).

In the In Re Marriage cases, the California Supreme Court recognized that:

Although our state Constitution does not contain any explicit reference to a “right to marry,” past California cases establish beyond question that the right to marry is a fundamental right whose protection is guaranteed to all persons by the California Constitution. (See, e.g., Conservatorship of Valerie N. (1985) 40 Cal.3d 143, 161 [219 Cal. Rptr. 387, 707 P.2d 760] (Valerie N.) [“The right to marriage and procreation are now recognized as fundamental, constitutionally protected interests. [Citations.] … These rights are aspects of the right of privacy which … is express in section 1 of articleI of the California Constitution which includes among the inalienable rights [*810] possessed by all persons in this state, that of ‘privacy.’ ”]; Williams v. Garcetti (1993) 5 Cal.4th 561, 577 [20 Cal. Rptr. 2d 341, 853 P.2d 507]
In re Marriage Cases, 43 Cal. 4th 757, 809-810 (Cal. 2008)

The big deal of those cases is not that the right to marry is fundamental, but that sexual orientation was made a "suspect class" like race:

The issue is one of first impression in California,however, and for the reasons discussed below we conclude that sexual orientation should be viewed as a suspect classification for purposes of the California Constitution's equal protection clause and that statutes that treat persons differently because of their sexual orientation should be subjected to strict scrutiny under this constitutional provision.
In re Marriage Cases, 43 Cal. 4th 757, 841 (Cal. 2008) Of course, this statement does say "statutes" and the "amendment/revision" is technically not a "statute" but it might be treated the same (I'm not sure on that).



Of course, this part is nice too: ;)

Accordingly, we conclude that the right to marry, as embodied in article I, sections 1 and 7 of the California Constitution, guarantees same-sex couples the same substantive constitutional rights as opposite-sex couples to choose one's life partner and enter with that person into a committed, officially recognized, and protected family relationship that enjoys all of the constitutionally based incidents of marriage.

It is incongruous to say that marriage is a basic human fundamental right guaranteed by the California Constitution.... but only for some people (which is the point of the In Re Marriage cases to begin with). Let's just try our best to make sure it does not pass, and not have to worry about this stuff.

[Morrigoon]

But of course we are being outspent by the Mormons. How they feel SO PASSIONATELY about taking away other people's rights is plain sick to me....
I'm not entirely sure they're all so passionate about Prop 8, most of them are just afraid of opposing their church. They've been calling them in for special meetings with their church leadership to discuss "suggested" donation amounts. Note that suggested is in quotes...

[Morrigoon]

Cherny: Good research, yeah I did my paper on a national scale. But like you say, ultimately, the (national) constitutionality of this battle will end up being decided on the national level.

Does the state supreme court not take national constitutionality into account?

[Kevy Baby]

Apparently the LHC people are organizing a costume thingy for the WeHo Halloween Carnival where they all dress up as No on 8 signs.

I hope I run into them. :DBut isn't that just preaching to the choir?

http://www.noonprop8.com/

WOOT there's the ad I'm talking about. This is more of what we need (message from the California Superintendent of Schools)On the radio this morning (KLOS), EVERY commercial break included a No on 8 ad that targeted the "teaching gay marriage in schools" issue with remarks from the CA Supt./Schools.

[JWBear]

If the case gets to the USSC, can't the overturning od Colorado's Amendment 2 be used as precedence against 8?

[BarTopDancer]

But isn't that just preaching to the choir?

On the radio this morning (KLOS), EVERY commercial break included a No on 8 ad that targeted the "teaching gay marriage in schools" issue with remarks from the CA Supt./Schools.

That ad has been all over KROQ (at least in the morning).

[Strangler Lewis]

Lawrence v. Texas would be the most direct precedent. Beyond saying that there was no rational basis for criminalizing gay sex, the majority spoke at some length about the personal nature of the decision of whom to love. It would seem odd to say that the personal decision of whom to love is only respected to the extent that you can't be thrown in jail for it but that it does not extend to the stabilizing institution of marriage.

[Morrigoon]

But isn't that just preaching to the choir?

Choir members gotta show up on Sunday if anyone's going to hear them sing.

[Morrigoon]

Lawrence v. Texas would be the most direct precedent. Beyond saying that there was no rational basis for criminalizing gay sex, the majority spoke at some length about the personal nature of the decision of whom to love. It would seem odd to say that the personal decision of whom to love is only respected to the extent that you can't be thrown in jail for it but that it does not extend to the stabilizing institution of marriage.
SL! That was the other court case I was trying to think of, you darling you! :)

[Gemini Cricket]

1. Lies.
2. Threats:
“On October 20, 2008, I received a certified-mail letter for the Prop 8 campaign requesting I withdraw my support of Equality California (EQCA) and demanding that I donate the same amount of money that I donated to the NO on Prop 8 campaign,” said Jim Abbott, Managing Partner of Abbott & Associates/Abbott Realty Group of San Diego, Calif. “The Prop 8 letter was very threatening if I chose to continue to fully exercise my right to support the NO on Prop 8 campaign.”
“This type of outrageous scare tactic from Prop 8 is intolerable. As a business owner, practicing Catholic, and civic leader who has served on the EQCA board for nearly three years, I believe in equality and rights for all...especially for my employees, 25 percent of whom are LGBT,” Abbott said.
Source (http://www.noonprop8.com/articles/2008/10/23/prop-8-campaign-threatens-business-leaders)

[Ghoulish Delight]

My opinion of AT&T, Comcast, Time Warner, Abbott and Associates, and California Association of Club Executives has gone up.

[Kevy Baby]

1. Lies.
2. Threats:
Source (http://www.noonprop8.com/articles/2008/10/23/prop-8-campaign-threatens-business-leaders)I am just stunned. I have no words. I WILL spreads this around to everyone, regardless of who I might piss off.

My opinion of AT&T, Comcast, Time Warner, Abbott and Associates, and California Association of Club Executives has gone up.I can guess why, but por que?

Never mind, I missed one page of the PDF.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I am just stunned. I have no words. I WILL spreads this around to everyone, regardless of who I might piss off.

I can guess why, but por que?There's a PDF of the letter Abbott received, as well as a copy of the list of contributors to Equality Califonia (above).

[Strangler Lewis]

It's an interesting issue, but that could be extortion. He should send the letter to the San Diego D.A. and, when they refuse to look into it, Jerry Brown. He should also, of course, say, fine, publish away.

[Kevy Baby]

What I really wish I could do is picket the Yes on H8 offices. But then I would have to go to Sacramento and that just isn't worth it.

[BarTopDancer]

The Yes on 8 people are up and down OSO pkwy and Alicia.

[BarTopDancer]

We need a list of all the supporters (besides the LDS church) who are financing Yes on 8.

Now that I think about it, this is probably one of the largest examples of a church forcing its will on the state.

[JWBear]

We need a list of all the supporters (besides the LDS church) who are financing Yes on 8.

Now that I think about it, this is probably one of the largest examples of a church forcing its will on the state.

Here you go! (http://www.protectmarriage.com/endorsements) (If you can stomach a visit to their webpage, that is.)

[BarTopDancer]

Here you go! (http://www.protectmarriage.com/endorsements) (If you can stomach a visit to their webpage, that is.)

GMTA. I went to get a list. It forced a registration, so I used "Jesus said don't judge" for the name and "equalityforall@itswhatjesuswoulddo.com" for the email.

[Kevy Baby]

GMTA. I went to get a list. It forced a registration...Really? I was able to look at the lists without registration.

[Prudence]

The pdf threat mentions something about undoing -- in the name of majority rule -- what four "unelected jurists" have done The irony there clearly escapes them.

[Betty]

And every name on the list is of a religous nature it would seem. You know - I don't tell them how to run their churches - but boy would I like to.

My daughter would really like to go to church with her friend. My husband and I do no attend church... we both did growing up, going to youth group etc and then realizing it was just not for us.

We won't let her go to church with her friend and their family. We've offerend to let her go with our mother in law instead - and she doesn't want to. It's more of doing stuff with her friend then going to church.

But this prop 8 BS just confirms that we totally made the right decision. I have no idea what silly ideas they'll try and brainwash her with and I have no intention of going to church first to find out.

Call me close minded if you want. I just can't get over people telling others to hate. The twisting of the words of the bible, the cherry picked things that are chosen to follow and ignore. It's just sickening. There is just no realy grasp of the "practice what you preach".

[BarTopDancer]

I'm going to have to start taking the 133 to and from work just to avoid all the people with Yes on 8 signs out there. They invoke such feelings of anger. I thought Jesus said don't judge, love everyone.

[Morrigoon]

I'm actually thinking of plastering the area with my own signs on telephone poles and such, just so I can drive to work feeling good instead of pissed off. I totally understand how ya feel, BTD.

[Morrigoon]

By the way, has anyone had a chance to complete the challenge yet? I'm planning on doing it this weekend. There are only 11 days left till the election.

[Betty]

I heard a new ad on the radio this morning - must better. Directly addresses the teaching kids about marriage angle.

[BarTopDancer]

EQCA has been spreading the word about the threatening letters from the 'protect marriage' people.

In happy news my parents are both voting NO on 8. I didn't even have to try and convince them.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I wonder why Apple waited so long, but they've announced their opposition to Prop 8 and a $100K donation to the No campaign. Better late than never.

[Kevy Baby]

I'm beginning to think that the swing in the polls to show that "Yes" was pulling ahead is a good thing for defeating 8. It is pushing people who weren't speaking up (and donating) to come out of the closet.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I'm beginning to think that the swing in the polls to show that "Yes" was pulling ahead is a good thing for defeating 8. It is pushing people who weren't speaking up (and donating) to come out of the closet.
Perhaps, perhaps not. I see it more as a money flow thing. Yes got a LOT of money, from the LDS and other sources. The No side simply does not have the funding, so they had to be very strategic with their spending. So they spent a little bit of money at the beginning to generate some fund raising efforts. Those fund raising efforts generated some more, free, word of mouth for a while and built a lead for "No". I get the feeling they fully expected that lead to evaporate, knowing that the Yes folks would have the fundage to start advertising early and often. I get the feeling the strategy was to hold off on spending until either a pre-planned date, or until the poll numbers dropped back to even, then use whatever money they managed to get together for one last surge, which is what we're seeing now.

ETA: Actually, that might explain why Apple waited. They may have been asked to hold off for a bit, hoping to pick a moment where enough people were paying attention for it to make a decent impact.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I stopped by the Dem office here and they said they have run out of No on 8 stickers due to demand, and that more are on the way. :)

[JWBear]

I'm beginning to think that the swing in the polls to show that "Yes" was pulling ahead is a good thing for defeating 8. It is pushing people who weren't speaking up (and donating) to come out of the closet.

So to speak... ;)

[BarTopDancer]

The Irvine office said they have been photocopying No on 8 stuff to hand out. I'm going to stop by on my way home.

[Chernabog]

When I went to a No on 8 fundraiser the other day the rep from the campaign said that they were saving a lot of money initially (due to limited resources), so that they could blitz the airwaves in the next few weeks.

[BarTopDancer]

LA Times Opinion section has a bit on the threatening letters the Yes on 8 campaign has been sending out.

Story here (http://opinion.latimes.com/opinionla/2008/10/same-sex-marria.html).

I also emailed several news stations, maybe they'll pick it up if enough people contact them.

[Gemini Cricket]

LA Times Opinion section has a bit on the threatening letters the Yes on 8 campaign has been sending out.

Story here (http://opinion.latimes.com/opinionla/2008/10/same-sex-marria.html).

I also emailed several news stations, maybe they'll pick it up if enough people contact them.
Apple joins the list of No on 8 supporters.
Apple Inc. announced on Friday that it had donated $100,000 to fight California’s Proposition 8, which aims to change the state’s constitution in order to outlaw marriage equality, the San Francisco Chronicle reports.
“Apple was among the first California companies to offer equal rights and benefits to our employees’ same-sex partners, and we strongly believe that a person’s fundamental right -- including the right to marry -- should not be affected by their sexual orientation,” the company said in a statement. “Apple views this as a civil rights issue rather than just a political issue and is therefore speaking out publicly against Proposition 8.” (The Advocate)

Source (http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid64402.asp)

[Ghoulish Delight]

Gah, the lies are so infuriating!

I passed someone today holding a sign reading, "Prop 8 = Parental Rights". What the hell? It has absolutely nothing to do with parental rights. It might as well have said, "Prop 8 = saving puppies' lives!" for all it has to do with reality.

Coming back the other way my anger got the best of me and as I slowed to turn the corner these jokers were on, I had my window down and yelled, "That's a lie and you know it!" The liar smiled and waved.

[MouseWife]

Looking on my news station {I think they are the ones who send my my updates} I saw that on each page, they have a 'Yes on 8' ad. :mad:

Today, after a dryspell, I received more emails. I replied this way, and you tell me, was I rude or what?

"We are voting for Obama and voting No. on Prop H8.

Please refrain from sending any more political emails.

We personally find them offensive and hateful."

and

"As you know, I am against Prop 8. I won't deny anyone the security of being married to the one that they love.

And, honestly, we are all brothers and sisters under one God, I think that He wouldn't want us to treat one another this way. Look into your heart and be leery of how others interpret the bible.

But, that is my opinion and you are welcome to yours.

Love to you"

Go ahead and guess which one was to my sister and which one to my fil?

My sis, bless her. She just doesn't get it, you know?

[BarTopDancer]

I think they were good emails.

[MouseWife]

Thanks, BTD.

Not a word back on either front.

[Gemini Cricket]

Here's a great No on 8 article that should be spread around. It's written by someone in the LDS church who opposes Prop 8:

With Proposition 8 it is time to stand for justice, not discrimination. It is time to stand for equality. It is time to be on the right side of history. Regardless of race, gender, or sexuality human beings are human beings and deserve to be treated as such. Today I voice my public support in favor of treating my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters as equals, and ask my fellow Mormons to do the same.Source (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joe-vogel/a-mormons-lament-church-i_b_138037.html)

[Gemini Cricket]

This is a wonderful story.
It has been many moons since I said that a Catholic priest actually inspired me. Today, after 22 years, I found one:
Farrow then had his epiphany when he was asked by a Prop. 8 supporter in Fresno to speak up in favor of the measure. He knew he couldn't and that in fact he had to do just the opposite.

"I am morally compelled to vote no on Proposition 8," he told his congregation, saying he had to break "a numbing silence" about church prejudice against homosexuals.

Among the critics in his own parish and beyond, there are those who quote the Bible to condemn homosexuality and gay marriage.

"The Bible is not a book, it's a library written over 15 centuries," Farrow told me, suggesting that Christianity has and should continue to evolve. "People who approach scripture in a literal fashion are attempting to manipulate God himself."

To Farrow, condemning gay and lesbian marriage is as offensive as the condemnations of interracial marriage not too many decades ago.Source (http://www.latimes.com/features/books/la-me-lopez26-2008oct26,0,5898443,full.column)

[Kevy Baby]

"The Bible is not a book, it's a library written over 15 centuries," Farrow told me, suggesting that Christianity has and should continue to evolve. "People who approach scripture in a literal fashion are attempting to manipulate God himself."

This has to be one of the most wonderful things I have read about the Bible.

[Betty]

Apparently the "other side" is doing similar things. I got a letter - okay a folded up 8 1/2 x 11 paper with yes on 8 garbarge inside and a post it note with a note addressed to my husband and myself.

Signed Kevy. (I only know one Kevy and I rather doubt it's from kevybaby.;) )

Return address is a suite of businesses in corona on magnolia. Looking at google street view it's on magnolia and ontario.

Anyway, no last name. No balls at all.

Frankly, if someone is going to send out that crap, they should at least have the balls to put their name on it.

I'm trying to decide if I should bring the letter to the address and go to each suite listed and see if they support it. And then they can kiss my ass if they do. Easy enough to tell them they've lost my business if it applies.

No name on it - long list of suites - clearly the person can't back up their beliefs.

It really pissed me off getting it. Like hate mail or something was delivered.

[Kevy Baby]

Signed Kevy. (I only know one Kevy and I rather doubt it's from kevybaby.;) )Nope: not me.

Return address is a suite of businesses in corona on magnolia. Looking at google street view it's on magnolia and ontario.

Anyway, no last name. No balls at all.

Frankly, if someone is going to send out that crap, they should at least have the balls to put their name on it.

I'm trying to decide if I should bring the letter to the address and go to each suite listed and see if they support it. And then they can kiss my ass if they do. Easy enough to tell them they've lost my business if it applies.

No name on it - long list of suites - clearly the person can't back up their beliefs.

It really pissed me off getting it. Like hate mail or something was delivered.Chances are pretty good that IF you found the correct suite/business that it will be one of the following:
A temporary office for a Yes on 8 campaign or other such organization. They will happily get into a debate with you with completely narrow minded views that are impossible to get into a rational argument with.
A company that specializes in "hit" campaigns in which case they probably won't care what your opinion is. Unfortunately, we have printed hit pieces in the past (not this year) that I was embarrassed to be associated with (it's not my company, so I have to do what the boss sez).
A small church with extreme fundamental views. There are many churches that congregate in business parks. See #1 above for argumentability.
(And this is a long-shot) An actual business with an extremist fundy that owns it. Also a fruitless argument and highly unlikely that you would patronize the business otherwise.Personally, I wouldn't waste my time on this.

[BarTopDancer]

On my way home I had some words with a Yes on 8 supporter at the corner of Alicia and Trabucco.

Me: Don't vote to take away rights!
Supporter: They already have rights!
Me: Exactly! YOU'RE trying to take them away!
Supporter - starts to walk away
Me: You know I'm right or you wouldn't be walking away.
Supporter - turns around
Me: What would Jesus do? I don't think he'd be cool with being hateful and discriminatory towards others.
Supporter - She opens her mouth to say something
Me: you know I'm right

and the light turned green.

---

Probably not the smartest thing to do, but driving past them 10 times a week (2x a day x 5 days a week) gets to you.

[alphabassettgrrl]

I wasn't able to get a "no on 8" yard sign because too many people already wanted them and they ran out. They hope to get some in soon.

I talked to our bus driver on the trip home (just a few minutes) and his question was about churches- that they'd have to change. No, churches (as far as I've seen) still get to choose who they marry. I didn't ask which way he was voting (if I take the bus again, maybe I will) but at least he's voting.

Minor. I know. I gave all the corner "yes" supporters the thumbs down over the weekend. I doubt they saw it but I can't pass and do nothing.

[Kevy Baby]

No, churches (as far as I've seen) still get to choose who they marry.I like to give two specific examples: the Catholic church (most will not allow you to marry in the church unless you are Catholic) and the LDS church. According to the latter, one is not "truly" married unless you are married in THE Temple in SLC (I don't know the official name). And, unless you are an LDS, you aren't even allowed to ATTEND (to witness) a marriage in that Temple.

[BarTopDancer]

I had a conversation with my LDS co-worker today. He's voting Yes (I tried, and I'll keep trying). On a positive note he doesn't believe the campaign ads on TV about teaching in school and thinks it's messed up to use the MA laws as what will happen in CA (and he shares that information with others).

He also thinks that regardless of what way the election goes people who are gay will eventually have the actual right to marry.

I ended the conversation asking him who will stand up when people come for his rights, or his daughters rights. No answer.

[alphabassettgrrl]

I like to give two specific examples: the Catholic church (most will not allow you to marry in the church unless you are Catholic) and the LDS church.


Yeah. That.

[Kevy Baby]

Yeah. That. When you can specifics, it always makes the argument stronger.

Well, almost always...

[katiesue]

Yay - there have been yes on 8 supporters flipin everywhere around here. And on the streetcorners morning and night. Finally today a group of No on 8 supporters took up another street corner with mostly hand made signs - YAY. I honked like mad for them.

[Morrigoon]

I had a conversation with my LDS co-worker today. He's voting Yes (I tried, and I'll keep trying). On a positive note he doesn't believe the campaign ads on TV about teaching in school and thinks it's messed up to use the MA laws as what will happen in CA (and he shares that information with others).

He also thinks that regardless of what way the election goes people who are gay will eventually have the actual right to marry.

I ended the conversation asking him who will stand up when people come for his rights, or his daughters rights. No answer.
Failing that, maybe you can at least convince him to abstain?

[BarTopDancer]

How in the fvck can the Yes on 8 campaign get away with blatant lies about gay marriage being taught in schools in CA just because it is part of the MA curriculum?

Seriously, I'm asking. Isn't that slander or something? It's a complete and utter lie. I know the No on 8 commercials are countering it, but how can they say it to begin with?

Edit - apparently some parents are not happy with the ads (http://www.noonprop8.com/headlines/outraged-parents-demand-that-commercial-be-taken-off-the-air-immediately/)

[Morrigoon]

YES!

The other day I contacted some random person on Twitter who was asking about the churches-forced-to-marry thing. Basically, went to his profile, visited his site, commented there clarifying things. I just got an email from him... Secured another NO vote! :)

[Betty]

Nope: not me.

Well of course it wasn't you!

And yeah - I hear you on the arguing thing. It just makes me angry.

I look at the few lawn signs in our neighborhood and think poorly of the people who live there.

FYI - in the house that's for rent, the yes on 8 sign I mentioned before was down within a day. First it was kicked over, then removed. I like to think someoene called the rental company and said WTF.

It was clearly the neighbors sign as it's now up in their yard and has been ever since.

But now with the lawn signs, it's very easy to see who the neighborhood idiots are. Maybe we should avoid their houses on Halloween. We wouldn't want to catch "the bigotry" from them and their tainted candy.

[Moonliner]

Well of course it wasn't you!

And yeah - I hear you on the arguing thing. It just makes me angry.

I look at the few lawn signs in our neighborhood and think poorly of the people who live there.

FYI - in the house that's for rent, the yes on 8 sign I mentioned before was down within a day. First it was kicked over, then removed. I like to think someoene called the rental company and said WTF.

It was clearly the neighbors sign as it's now up in their yard and has been ever since.

But now with the lawn signs, it's very easy to see who the neighborhood idiots are. Maybe we should avoid their houses on Halloween. We wouldn't want to catch "the bigotry" from them and their tainted candy.

Before you heap too much vitriol on the neighbours, take a moment to reflect that many people seem to view this not as a gay rights issue, but as an issue of the state interfering with their freedom of religion.

[BarTopDancer]

Before you heap too much vitriol on the neighbours, take a moment to reflect that many people seem to view this not as a gay rights issue, but as an issue of the state interfering with their freedom of religion.

Except it's not. It's one religion trying to impose their views on the rest of the state. It doesn't effect them in any way, shape or form, yet they want to take away rights for thousands of people. I certainly won't be standing up for them if their rights are ever in jeopardy.

[Morrigoon]

their freedom to impose their religion on other people's relationships...

[innerSpaceman]

I wasn't able to convince my two Mormon crewmates to at least abstain. :(

[Morrigoon]

crewmates?

[BarTopDancer]

I'm not going to push my co-worker to hard. He's got common sense about him and he's doing what he feels is right. His issue is with the word "marriage" and that a "marriage" should only be between 2 people of opposite sex, in a church blessed by god. He doesn't have an issue taking away the term "marriage" from hetero couples who weren't married in a church either.

At least he's pushing that the campaign ads are full of lies to his friends who believe them. Maybe a last minute crisis of consciousness will hit some of the Yes on 8 people in the voting booth.

[Moonliner]

Except it's not. It's one religion trying to impose their views on the rest of the state. It doesn't effect them in any way, shape or form, yet they want to take away rights for thousands of people. I certainly won't be standing up for them if their rights are ever in jeopardy.

I never said it was. I just said that's the perception.

[Betty]

No - I think the yes on 8 folks should be shunned. they are either blindly following their church without thinking for themselves or are no better then those who would discriminate based on ones skin color.

They would shun others - why not let all the others shun them instead.

I know - maybe I should be more accepting of those with different thoughts and values... but damnit - they ought to get a taste of their own medicine and see how bitter it is.

[innerSpaceman]

crewmates?
Friends on this year's Halloween Party Crew. Two of them, including Autumn - who is basically my co-conspirator and equal host - are Mormon. I waited till after the party was done to have "The Talk" with them.

Frankly, they are two of the least hateful people I've ever known, so there's no mistaking their choice for hatefulness. Once I confirmed they are voting the way they are from their own volition rather than LDS decree, I had no choice of my own to but to respect their freedom of choice and cordially disagree with theirs.

I know - maybe I should be more accepting of those with different thoughts and values... but damnit - they ought to get a taste of their own medicine and see how bitter it is.
Perhaps. But not from me. Who loses if I were to give them a taste of their own medicine? If I must become as intolerant as they in order to "teach them a lesson," I am the big loser.

It was enough to state my case, point out the hypocrisy of Mormons to foist their definition of marriage on others, and appeal to their lasting hurt that their personal view of the "right" definintion of marriage (i.e., male polygamy) has been made illegal by the determination of others.

[Kevy Baby]

But now with the lawn signs, it's very easy to see who the neighborhood idiots are. Maybe we should avoid their houses on Halloween. We wouldn't want to catch "the bigotry" from them and their tainted candy.Or, go as a gay couple. Siegfried and Roy, Ellen and Portia, Bert and Ernie

It's one religion trying to impose their views on the rest of the state.Actually, it is not just one religion.

I wasn't able to convince my two Mormon crewmates to at least abstain. :(What; were they doing it right there on the lawn?

[alphabassettgrrl]

ISM- that's a good way to handle it. We can all disagree, but it's definitely progress to handle that disagreement with respect and cordiality. The biggest problem I have with politics today is the vilification of the other side simply because they're "the other side".

[Kevy Baby]

The biggest problem I have with politics today is the vilification of the other side simply because they're "the other side".Which, unfortunately, we are seeing right here in this thread.

[BarTopDancer]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

I'm quickly losing respect for anyone who is voting Yes because the church told them so. I actually gained respect for my co-worker because he has his own thoughts on the issue.

When one can have a discussion and back up their choices, it's one thing. When all they can do is spout lies and propaganda it's another.

And it may be more than one religion, but LDS has funded something like 77% of the Yes on 8 campaign. They are the church I'm holding responsible for this campaign of hatred.

[Strangler Lewis]

ISM, what principled case did your Mormon friends make other than telling you to your face that your lifestyle was immoral? If there is such a case to be made, I haven't heard the Prop. 8 folks make it.

[Betty]

Which, unfortunately, we are seeing right here in this thread.

Okay - that was probably for me. :( Spewing spite and all. I won't actually get off my butt and do anything about it... so lazy and spiteful I guess I am.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Which, unfortunately, we are seeing right here in this thread.
I tolerate a great many opinions and differences of belief. However I draw the line at attempting to deprive someone of equal rights.

[Betty]

Mark and Brian had a funny sketch I heard this morning that was a replay from yesterday... a spoof of the Yes on 8 ads... not sure if you can hear it but it really made fun of them. If you vote no on 8, you'll turn gay, so will your kids, even your dog will be gay, type of thing.

[Gemini Cricket]

My friend Stephanie wrote something amazing on her Facebook page about losing her father this past weekend and one of the difficulties her father's partner faced after Steph's dad's death.

It's much too long to post here. But I did re-post it on my Facebook page for people to read.

It's a powerful piece.

Check it out.

[Morrigoon]

So this morning on my way to work I looked at the corner where that stupid Yes sign is. The sign was still there, but also on the corner, in a more prominent position, was a No sign :)

[Kevy Baby]

Mark and Brian had a funny sketch I heard this morning that was a replay from yesterday... a spoof of the Yes on 8 ads... not sure if you can hear it but it really made fun of them. If you vote no on 8, you'll turn gay, so will your kids, even your dog will be gay, type of thing.Go to this link (http://radiosocalklos.net/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=65&Itemid=39) and choose "Prop 8 Ad 10-27-2008"

It is really funny.

[innerSpaceman]

ISM, what principled case did your Mormon friends make other than telling you to your face that your lifestyle was immoral? If there is such a case to be made, I haven't heard the Prop. 8 folks make it.
Nope, that's it.

Who am I to tell them what their moral code should be, and who are they to tell me?

They would vote to outlaw drinking and smoking if given the opportunity. They are just trying to make the world a better place by their vote, based on their personal (I'm sure LDS-influenced) views of what a better place would look like.

Certainly, I have a moral code that brooks little opposition. And I certainly vote and take other actions to make the world a better place in my view.

Minding my own damn business and not impinging on the rights of others is my own view of a better place, but who am I to declare it must be the view of everyone?


Funny, though, how they think nothing of voting to take away my rights to marry ... but have never once had a talk with me to influence my decisions to drink alcohol, smoke pot, or have sex with men. These discussions would have been fruitless, and I'm sure they knew that ... but I knew my asking them to abstain or vote No on 8 would be fruitless, and yet I certainly had that dicussion with them.


I'm bothered they feel they can go into the voting boothy to take away my right to marry, but won't just ask me nicely not to marry another guy. Heheh.


Still, their petty bigotry, intolerance, and religiousity small mindedness are but small elements of otherwise wonderful people. I will remain friends with them. My predilections for drinking, gettting high, and sucking dick are but small elements of the "otherwise" wonderful Zlick, and so they will remain friends with me.


I tried.


They are literally the only two people I know who will be voting Yes on 8, so I have no one else I can hope to convince.


Still, I'd like to do something in these final days. I really dropped the ball on working to defeat Prop 8.

[Morrigoon]

How about distributing 100 flyers?
Okay guys, I don't know about you, but I'm getting worried about this election. I think it's time for some grass-roots efforts to get the word out there about voting No on Prop 8. So here's my challenge to you:

Create a flyer (your own or one shared by another LoTer) that reminds people to vote No. Could be as simple as a circle slash with Prop 8 in the center, or as detailed as you want, I don't care, as long as it reminds people why it's so important to vote no.
Go to Kinko's, make 100 copies of your flyer, and distribute all of them in a manner of your choosing (on car windshields in the Target parking lot, on your neighbors' doorsteps, hand them out in person in a public place, whatever).
Then post here that you've done it.

I haven't got much in the way of prizes, but I will give a reindeer Mickey ear hat to everyone who completes the challenge (While supplies last. Yes, the ones from last year's Xmas party).

Feel free to use this thread to discuss/share flyer and distribution ideas.

My hope is that we'll all (myself included) feel inspired to continue the effort and spread the word even further than the initial hundred. But I can tell you from experience that handing out more than a hundred flyers is a lot to bite off, so please start with that, and if you still feel inspired, then go make more copies, etc.

[Morrigoon]

Just spent my lunch arguing Prop 8 with some random guy I shared a table with in the food court. Sadly, I believe I was unsuccessful. He's convinced that his kids are going to be taught gay marriage in school, and nothing will convince him otherwise.

[Promo-Man]

Prop 8 is just full of hate

[Gemini Cricket]

Dianne Feinstein is featured in the newest No on 8 ad:
See it here. (https://www.kintera.org/site/c.krLRKXPBLqF/b.4708947/apps/ka/sd/donor.asp?c=krLRKXPBLqF&b=4708947&en=9hIPIYNyFhJLLRMDLgJIJROFIlJXIcOILgITL6PNJnKTI4P KLnJ5F)

Well, good for her.
:)

[Chernabog]

I'm reading all these accounts of Mormons from out of state spending $30,000+ on Yes on 8, pouring their life savings into this.

How amazingly sad. To spend all your money trying to block someone else's right to marry in a state a thousand miles away.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

They would shun others - why not let all the others shun them instead.Shunning doesn't make anything better. Neither does vilifying.

These are misled people. They only want what's best and they are scared. They need to be educated, not locked away from reality, left victims of ignorance and evil persuasion.

I hope no one would leave me behind when other revolutions show up on my doorstep.

[Chernabog]

These are misled people. They only want what's best and they are scared. They need to be educated, not locked away from reality, left victims of ignorance and evil persuasion.


They need to be educated but so many cannot be educated -- because they don't WANT to be educated. They don't want to open their eyes, and that is their moral failing. There's a world of difference between the ignorant person open to knowledge and the ignorant person proud of how closed-minded they are.

[innerSpaceman]

Yep, it astounded me how my otherwise most good-hearted friends who, ya know, somehow feature some frontier Jesus Christ in their cult religion, can consider it the moral high ground to doom other people to a life of relative loneliness.


But if that's their moral viewpoint, how can they be "educated" out of it?

Can you be educated out of yours?

[alphabassettgrrl]

If a more logical argument were made, then yes, I hope I would adopt that viewpoint. I've tried to live my life by reasonably rational layouts, so if a better argument exists, I'd like to give it a chance.

I saw a new "no on 8" sign coming home from school today. Yay!

[BarTopDancer]

I was driving home from work and saw two women on the corner with No on 8 signs. So after acknowledging them I drove to to the next light and bought poster board and a sharpie at Target, turned around and stood out with them for about an hour. One said "No on 8, don't hate" and the other said "don't vote to take away rights, No on 8". I got a lot more response to the 2nd sign.

The response overall was a lot more positive than I was expecting (South County at Alicia and Muirlands). Lots of honks, cheers from all ages, races and genders. Only 2 vehicles yelling at us - one was a middle aged man and the 2nd was 2 teenagedish boys who were confused if they should "like" or "dislike" Prop 8.

If anyone is interested one of the women is going to be by El Toro and the 5 towards the In n Out side of the mall every day until the election.

[katiesue]

Yay - there's been a corner by me that's been Yes on 8 - and like 25 people every morning/eveining. Yesterday the No on 8 peeps got a small foothold on one corner. Tonight - they had three. I honked for them like mad. If I didn't have to be somewhere I would have stopped and pitched in.

And I just got a please vote No on 8 phone call explaining all the misinformation out there.

[Gemini Cricket]

BTD - That's awesome!
:snap:

[Morrigoon]

All 4 corners by my place had crowds of yeses waving their yellow signs. I turned right around and went to the market, then another, then another till I found posterboard. Made my own signs and went out there to counter protest. Some other No folks showed up around the same time. We stood on opposite sides of Trabuco waving our signs and exchanging friendly looks. One guy came over and gave me a lawn sign to stick on my corner next to the yes that was out there. He told me the yes people scatter like cockroaches the moment more than one No shows up.

[Morrigoon]

BTD: Awesome, thanks for stopping! That made my night when I saw your tweet about it.

Keeping my new posterboard signs in my car, for any opportunities that should arise in the next week.

[innerSpaceman]

I love the guerilla counterprotest stories! Way to go, BTD and Goonie.


Maybe it's the area I live in, but I've yet to see a Yes on 8 sign or demonstration.

I almost wish I would so I could follow the awesome example of you folks!

[Prudence]

I don't understand the "teaching marriage in school" issue. How exactly is marriage "taught"? And if marriage is a sacred religious ceremony and we should be up in arms at churches being "forced" to marry gay couples, why is marriage taught in schools at all?

[Morrigoon]

iSm: pick a corner, any corner, they're all lucky! :)

BTW: if you lived down here, you'd get pissed off every day, trust me, it's not fun constantly seeing those people.

[JWBear]

I love the guerilla counterprotest stories! Way to go, BTD and Goonie.


Maybe it's the area I live in, but I've yet to see a Yes on 8 sign or demonstration.

I almost wish I would so I could follow the awesome example of you folks!

Same here.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Not sure if I posted this before, but I saw a bunch of No on 8 demonstrators at the plaza in downtown Orange. No counter demonstrators, which surprised me. The "support our troops" guys still show up to counter the peaceniks each Wednesday, and I see plenty of Yes on 8 stickers around.

It warmed the cockles of my heart ;)


Yay to our resident demonstrators! You rule.

[katiesue]

I have two mormon churchs within eyesight and a third less than 4 miles from here (and on my way to work). I'm totally surrounded. I'd say easily every 5th car has a Yes sticker on it.

[innerSpaceman]

Hmmm, there is the big Mormon Temple at Overland and Santa Monica. :evil:

[BarTopDancer]

Does the city own the lawn (the side by the street) outside these buildings?

[katiesue]

Hmmm, there is the big Mormon Temple at Overland and Santa Monica. :evil:

Totally off topic but Madzers daycare was near there when we lived in LA. And I'd show her the SunAmerica Building where I worked. So every time she saw the Mormon Temple she'd tell me that one day that would be were she worked.

[innerSpaceman]

I'm pretty sure that huge lawn is sovereign Mormon Territory.

But I'm not quite clear about the sidewalk out in front of the lawn.







Still ... demonstrating to drivers along Santa Monica Boulevard on the West Side of L.A. would be like Preaching to the (Mormon Tabernacle) Choir.

[Not Afraid]

I saw a few No people on street corners in LB this weekend, but no Yes people out and about. Apparently, they were all in Orange County - lining up on PCH every few blocks all the way from Brookhurst to Sunset Beach.

Maybe we should have our own stand-in there.

And, after NOT rear ending a car with a bumper sticker that says "Yes On 8 - Protect the Family" I've decided I need a bumper sticker that says "No on 8 - Protect Families"

[BarTopDancer]

There was a large group of No on 8 out at PCH and Main Thursday, Friday and Saturday. It does seem that a lot of the Yes on 8 people mobilized down into OC. The further south and inland you go the more there are. It's the demographic.

The signs on my car say "Please don't take away the rights of my friends". I'm finding that people are more receptive to the fact that rights are being taken away then claims of protecting or not protecting families.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I think I'm done arguing that gay marriage is not going to be taught in schools.

Screw that. My new response? "So? Alert the media! Our children are going to be taught about freedom in schools! Their teachers are going to teach them that in America, they're free to make their own choices about their lives! It's the end of our country as we know it!"

[Morrigoon]

There was a large group of No on 8 out at PCH and Main Thursday, Friday and Saturday. It does seem that a lot of the Yes on 8 people mobilized down into OC. The further south and inland you go the more there are. It's the demographic.

The signs on my car say "Please don't take away the rights of my friends". I'm finding that people are more receptive to the fact that rights are being taken away then claims of protecting or not protecting families.
Wanna join up & do some happy hour demonstrating? You said those folks you stood with yesterday will be out again, right?

[innerSpaceman]

Why is election day always near Halloween? Who's the nimrod who thought that up?!

[Morrigoon]

Get all the scary stuff out of the way at once, I suppose.

[Kevy Baby]

Why is election day always near Halloween? Who's the nimrod who thought that up?!Because they are so similar in concept.

[Chernabog]

Screw that. My new response? "So? Alert the media! Our children are going to be taught about freedom in schools! Their teachers are going to teach them that in America, they're free to make their own choices about their lives! It's the end of our country as we know it!"

And Bunnicula will take over the world!!!! Just like in GC's avatar.

[Gemini Cricket]

And Bunnicula will take over the world!!!! Just like in GC's avatar.
I protest! I am not a rabbit!



:D :p

[innerSpaceman]

But your wascaly, alwight.





Sigh, just got a call from LHC asking me to volunteer on election day and had to turn them down. No more time off for me. I'm a bad, bad, fag.

[Gemini Cricket]

TORRANCE -- Authorities say a Torrance man who used an anti-gay marriage "Yes on Prop. 8" sign to attack an openly gay man has been charged with a felony hate crime.
Joseph Storm, 23, got into a scuffle with a 22-year-old man wearing a "No on 8" button early Sunday in Torrance, according to Deputy District Attorney Janet Wilson.
Source (http://www.ktla.com/landing_topstories/?Official--Gay-Man-Attacked-With-Yes-on-P=1&blockID=120717&feedID=1198)
:(

[innerSpaceman]

Well, to be honest, if the gay dude really pulled the Yes on 8 sign out of someone's lawn and threw it in the street, he provoked some sort of reaction.

That's just not a cool thing to do, and we've discussed that very thing here in this thread. It's tempting, but wrong. The correct reaction is to put up a competing No on 8 sign, in the vicinity if possible.


I'm not saying he deserved to get bashed. But it's not like the guy came running at him with the sign just because he was gay, or was advocating for a different electoral outcome.



Again, that's IF the claims of the accussed are true. Admittedly a very BIG IF for a guy who reacts with violence ... about 200 times as WRONG as removing the lawn sign.

[Kevy Baby]

On my way home last night, there were Yes on 8 Protesters on all four corners of Lambert and St College. Because of how I was feeling (bad cold), I did not stop. I spent all last night and today regretting that decision. On the drive home tonight, I decided that despite having zero energy, etc., I was going to stop and have a discussion.

Alas, they were not there. However, I saw the sign on the church on the NE corner:

Protesters on the Corner
Are Not From This Church

It made my night :)

[Gemini Cricket]

An interesting article about the limbo the same-sex couples who married in CA will be in if Prop 8 passes.
Proposition 8 would amend the state Constitution to define marriage as only between a man and a woman, but the measure does not address what would happen to the estimated 16,000 same-sex couples who have tied the knot since gay marriage became legal in California on June 17.
Source (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-marriagelaw30-2008oct30,0,3560871.story)

[BarTopDancer]

Wanna join up & do some happy hour demonstrating? You said those folks you stood with yesterday will be out again, right?

Sorry, no can do. Any demonstrating I do up until the election will be in HB, but chances are, it won't be much (my teachers don't take demonstrating to save rights as an excuse to not turn in homework).

One woman lives in HB and will be closer to home. The other woman will be by the Laguna Hills mall, near In n Out. No idea what time though.

I think NoOn8.org has a sign up for demonstrating and working election day. I can't do any of the times. Stupid work. :(

[Andrew]

An interesting article about the limbo the same-sex couples who married in CA will be in if Prop 8 passes.

Source (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-marriagelaw30-2008oct30,0,3560871.story)
Attorney General Jerry Brown has stated that in his opinion the measure does not invalidate marriages performed when they were legal. The difference between this and the '04 marriages authorized by Mayor Newsom is that they were declared to have never been legal, while these are definitely legal right now.

[Morrigoon]

Well that's a relief, because the way the amendment is written, "Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California," seems to indicate that the state would no longer recognize those marriages.

[Morrigoon]

Ooh, I like this quote: (from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prop_8))

"Marriage is ... something more than a civil contract subject to regulation by the state; it is a fundamental right of free men.... Legislation infringing such rights must be based upon more than prejudice and must be free from oppressive discrimination to comply with the constitutional requirements of due process and equal protection of the laws." - CA Supreme Court, 1948

[innerSpaceman]

This is not going away, no matter what the result of the election is.


I believe the lawsuit challenging Prop 8's legality to remove fundamental rights from the California Constitution will be successful (if, after Tuesday, it becomes necessary).

[Morrigoon]

Of course it's not going away, people, once granted their rights, are not just going to give up and go back to the way things were. But it's going to cost the state millions if the fight has to continue. And I'd much rather this not have to escalate to the Federal level at this time... I don't think the country's ready to do right by it.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Gah, I can't turn it off. Pulling into a parking lot at lunch there was someone with a sign with their back to me. I couldn't see the sign, so as I sat there waiting for the left turn light to change, I felt myself getting tenser, gripping the steering wheel thinking, "That better be a "No" sign. Grrrrrrrr."

The light changed, I turned.


"$5 footlongs at Subway"

:blush:

[innerSpaceman]

Oh, there's a gay joke in there somewhere ... but I'm too tired.

[BarTopDancer]

I'm really tempted to print out "don't take away rights" flyers and put them on cars with Yes on 8 stickers.

[Kevy Baby]

I'm really tempted to print out "don't take away rights" flyers and put them on cars with Yes on 8 stickers.Nah, just do like I do: firebomb the car.

[BarTopDancer]

New No on 8 ad. (http://www.noonprop8.com/articles/2008/10/30/new-no-on-prop-8-ad-calls-upon-californians-to-reject-discrimination)

Primetime My Name is Earl placement.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I might print myself a sign for the back window of my car.

"Freedom and Equality. No on 8"

[CoasterMatt]

What about the real traditional meaning of marriage?

Two people committed to loving and caring for each other.

These people saying that "marriage is in jeopardy" must be in cold, meaningless relationships, if the legal definition of somebody else's marriage determines the value of their own.

[JWBear]

This one was shown twice during Ugly Betty tonight. (http://www.noonprop8.com/headlines/america-ferrera-tony-plana-ana-ortiz-speak-out-against-prop-8/)

[alphabassettgrrl]

But some people *do* gauge their family and their lives by comparison with others. If the club's open to too many other people, they feel less special.

Or they think that gay people can't possibly mean their commitments in the way that straight people do (because getting married at the drive-through chapel in Vegas and getting divorced when the weekend ends is so committed).

Personally I think celebrities have done a lot of damage to the idea of marriage and if anything, I'd like to see *that* change.

[Andrew]

The Sam Jackson ad ran during 30 Rock here in the SF Bay Area. Gave me chills.

[BarTopDancer]

How in the fvck can the Yes on 8 campaign get away with blatant lies about gay marriage being taught in schools in CA just because it is part of the MA curriculum?

Seriously, I'm asking. Isn't that slander or something? It's a complete and utter lie. I know the No on 8 commercials are countering it, but how can they say it to begin with?

Anyone?

[innerSpaceman]

Lies are the currency of political campaigns, and especially of those on the side of EVIL.

[Tom]

The latest Field Poll shows the measure trailing 49-44%. This pollster's last poll, in September had it trailing by 17%.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

We as a culture are ok with being lied to. We may yell about it, but people that lie for gains are not totally ruined for doing so. I tend to have a black and white opinion on this myself, so I get pissed when I think about the concept of lying as an accepted necessary evil. Personally, I can envision a serious system where if you tell outright lies about what your ballot measure will do in order to not only get your measure passed but to actually frighten people, the measure should be disqualified.

This is why I am not a politician :)

[Betty]

Not just disqualified, but under certain circumstances, there should be a penalty involved. Seems like it's okay to say just about whatever you want about these props and other politicians and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Well - I guess you could sue for slander or libel against another person, but a prop. can't sue people it's opponents for lying about it.

The lies can be very outlandish with just an inkling of truth or perceived truth and that's all that matters.

You can't trust any of the ads - and very few people are going to really do the research to find out the truth. And even then, how many people that read the entire prop's literature, actually grasp what it really means.

And one wonders why politics are all effed up and we have budget problems.

[Gemini Cricket]

This one's for 3rd graders... like iSm. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpxqXQAiyT0)
;)

[Alex]

If Prop 8 passes, gay marriage will be taught in schools (to the extent that marriage is discussed in schools anyway). I have no problem with that. It is called informing children of the reality in which they live. It is kind of like bitching that if anti-miscegenation laws are overturned it would be bad because mixed race marriages will be taught in schools.

But the segment of the population bothered by that is already used to preferring a world in which public schools lie to children to support religious teaching.

[Ghoulish Delight]

If Prop 8 passes, gay marriage will be taught in schools (to the extent that marriage is discussed in schools anyway). I have no problem with that. It is called informing children of the reality in which they live. It is kind of like bitching that if anti-miscegenation laws are overturned it would be bad because mixed race marriages will be taught in schools.
Yeah, that was what I was getting at earlier. It suddenly occurred to me that the response to that should be, "Yeah? So?"

[Strangler Lewis]

The average school administrator likes to avoid controversy, so I imagine that when marriage is discussed, neutral terms like spouse will be used. This will undoubtedly annoy some. I also think that schools will avoid "reading time" books that feature straight romances out of concern that gay parents will lobby for stories featuring gay romances.

I think gay marriage is more likely to be "taught," if at all, in high schools as part of a civil rights discussion.

[Strangler Lewis]

Oh, and I assume that at some point, some adventurous drama teacher will try to do a gay version of "Marty."

"When you gonna get married, Marty, hah? When you gonna get married?"
"I'm a big ugly man, ma. I'm a big, dumb ugly man. What guy would have me?"

[Ghoulish Delight]

Woohoo, passed a pair of "No" sign waivers today!

One thing that it made me realize, as car after car went by honking and waving, for all the "Yes" signs I've passed I haven't seen anyone honking and waving like that at all.

I don't know whether to be encouraged or worried by that. On the one hand, it's really great to see that there's more vocal support for the "No" signs. On the other hand, with the poll numbers already so tight, it makes concerned that there's something akin to the mythical Bradley effect where people aren't willing to outright admit their support.

[BarTopDancer]

Woohoo, passed a pair of "No" sign waivers today!

One thing that it made me realize, as car after car went by honking and waving, for all the "Yes" signs I've passed I haven't seen anyone honking and waving like that at all.

I don't know whether to be encouraged or worried by that. On the one hand, it's really great to see that there's more vocal support for the "No" signs. On the other hand, with the poll numbers already so tight, it makes concerned that there's something akin to the mythical Bradley effect where people aren't willing to outright admit their support.

I realized that same thing the day after I was out with my NO sign. I can't recall any honks or cheers when passing yes holders.

I'm wondering with the polls so tight if there isn't going to be an anti-Bradley effect, where people aren't willing to outright admit their opposition, especially those who are religious.

[innerSpaceman]

Brad, that ad was, like, so gay.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I'm wondering with the polls so tight if there isn't going to be an anti-Bradley effect, where people aren't willing to outright admit their opposition, especially those who are religious.
One would hope, but based on the utterly meaningless honking data, I'd guess it would be the other way. They won't publicly via their vehicle or to a pollster have the balls to say, 'I want to take rights away', but once that curtain is closed...

[Morrigoon]

I found the opposite. When I was standing among all those yes people with my no sign, the honking was insane. I found the No people far more likely to share a knowing nod, or a thumbs up. And that was true even when it was just the one yes lady and myself. No folks were quieter in expressing their support, whereas the yes people are honking and waving