"Why Believe in God" ad campaign

flippyshark · 01-05-2009, 12:49 PM

The golden rule is in no way incompatible with enlightened self interest. I don't see it as superior to (or inferior to) but part and parcel of.

Actually, Rabbi Hillel gave the rule as "Whatever is hateful to you, don't do to others," which I think may be superior to the more common form of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Why? Well, you might desire something that others would find unsavory. (extreme and rude example - "I just don't understand why she objected when I peed on her. It's what I would have wanted.") On the other hand, if you avoid behaviors that you yourself would not enjoy, you automatically go a long way toward modeling to others what you would like or expect from them in return. It's not a bad starting point for a moral system, secular or otherwise.

The sacrifice of the chaplains is laudable regardless of their own belief system. Their decision to give themselves up for the good of four sailors may have been informed somewhat by a sense of expectation. ("As a representative of a higher power, it's better for me to model supreme sacrifice, rather than spend the rest of my life justifying my decision to save myself." Indeed, it would have sounded lame for any one of them to say "I thought it was important for me to survive so I could continue to give moral sustenance to the rest of you." Such a chaplain might well have been seen as a coward.)

I suspect there have been any number of non-theists who have also given their lives for others. Unlike the chaplains, they do so without any expectation of heavenly reward. I could see someone deciding that their own biological imperative simply means less to them than dying for something admirable or heroic. ("I could decide to save myself at the cost of someone else's life, but then, will I be able to live with myself?") Not long ago, there was even a video posted in a thread here showing a dog who was willing to put his life at risk to save another dog on a busy highway. (I'm assuming the dog had some understanding of the danger - I guess it could have been in the so-stupid-I'm-brave category.)

Surely you aren't saying that the actions of Mugabe or Idi Amin are examples of ESI, are you? (Enlightened self interest - one serves ones own interests best by serving the interests of others.) Your examples sound more like its opposite, unenlightened self interest - rapacity and willingness to murder to further ones own agenda. How exactly did society benefit from these guys?

I will agree that societies built around ESI face risk from aggressors who do not share those values of tolerance.

01-05-2009, 12:49 PM	#11
flippyshark Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 2,852	The golden rule is in no way incompatible with enlightened self interest. I don't see it as superior to (or inferior to) but part and parcel of. Actually, Rabbi Hillel gave the rule as "Whatever is hateful to you, don't do to others," which I think may be superior to the more common form of "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Why? Well, you might desire something that others would find unsavory. (extreme and rude example - "I just don't understand why she objected when I peed on her. It's what I would have wanted.") On the other hand, if you avoid behaviors that you yourself would not enjoy, you automatically go a long way toward modeling to others what you would like or expect from them in return. It's not a bad starting point for a moral system, secular or otherwise. The sacrifice of the chaplains is laudable regardless of their own belief system. Their decision to give themselves up for the good of four sailors may have been informed somewhat by a sense of expectation. ("As a representative of a higher power, it's better for me to model supreme sacrifice, rather than spend the rest of my life justifying my decision to save myself." Indeed, it would have sounded lame for any one of them to say "I thought it was important for me to survive so I could continue to give moral sustenance to the rest of you." Such a chaplain might well have been seen as a coward.) I suspect there have been any number of non-theists who have also given their lives for others. Unlike the chaplains, they do so without any expectation of heavenly reward. I could see someone deciding that their own biological imperative simply means less to them than dying for something admirable or heroic. ("I could decide to save myself at the cost of someone else's life, but then, will I be able to live with myself?") Not long ago, there was even a video posted in a thread here showing a dog who was willing to put his life at risk to save another dog on a busy highway. (I'm assuming the dog had some understanding of the danger - I guess it could have been in the so-stupid-I'm-brave category.) Surely you aren't saying that the actions of Mugabe or Idi Amin are examples of ESI, are you? (Enlightened self interest - one serves ones own interests best by serving the interests of others.) Your examples sound more like its opposite, unenlightened self interest - rapacity and willingness to murder to further ones own agenda. How exactly did society benefit from these guys? I will agree that societies built around ESI face risk from aggressors who do not share those values of tolerance. Last edited by flippyshark : 01-05-2009 at 01:07 PM.
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