Amazing Race: All Stars

[Ghoulish Delight]

I got the feeling that Rob just intercepted the flight attendant as she was headed to U&J's seat to deliver the paper.

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by Nephythys

Stealing?

Did Uchenna leave it there for Rob to take? Yeah, I think he did- even if he did not mean to.

Responsibility lies with Uchenna and Joyce- if you don't want someone to pick up that paper, don't leave it there.

Are you honestly telling me that taking something that doesn’t belong to you is not stealing if it’s just sitting there?!?! Try telling that to the police! “But officer… the car was just sitting there in the parking lot. Nobody was in it; I thought it was up for grabs!”

Originally Posted by Nephythys

Once again- Rob and Amber made use of something that happened to be staring them in the face- so they took it. I find it impossible to believe that any other team would not have made the same choice.

The goal is to win a race- not sainthood or an award for being pious.

Again… taking something that does not belong to you is theft. It is wrong. Being in a competition does not excuse theft.

I find it very possible to believe that most teams would not steal from other teams. Most people are basically honest.

Yes, the goal is to win, but there have to be rules, and there have to be limits; otherwise you have anarchy. If you allow (or encourage) the stealing of directions, where do you draw the line? Why not steal another teams clue or their passports? Why not injure or kill them? Anything to win, right?

I must be old fashioned, but I believe that winning is meaningless if you lie, cheat, and steal to achieve it. Sportsmanship, fair play, having fun, and knowing how to accept defeat gracefully is far more important than whether you win or lose.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by JWBear

Yes, the goal is to win, but there have to be rules, and there have to be limits; otherwise you have anarchy.

But that's just it. There ARE rules. And if they aren't being penalized, then they haven't broken any rules. If the producers of Amazing Race don't want it happening, they'd put it in the rules. It would be one thing if the teams were disagreeing about what is and isn't within the rules. It's another thing for them to be complaining about something that is clearly within the rules.

I would totally understand if a team were in a situation where Rob and Amber were asking for their help and they said, "Sorry, we don't like the way you play so we're not helping you," (though if it would benefit them as well I'd think it would be a poor choice). But to just complain to them that "it's not fair?" If I wanted to watch people play a game and complain that the rules aren't fair, I'd go watch a game of kickball at the nearest elementary school.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I keep wanting to come back to the stealing signs in baseball analogy because it's so apt. But as I think about it, it's prevalent in every sport. Why do football teams huddle up before a play? Why does the quarterback yell random words and numbers? Why do basketball players use hand signals to set their offense? It's all to prevent the other team from "stealing" their information, from knowing what they're going to do next. Why don't they just rely on the other team's sense of sportsmanship to not listen in? Or, going back to baseball for a moment, how incredibly rude for players to be stealing bases.

In professional sports, there's no leeway. A professional player will, and should, do anything they can within the rules to win. If that means they embarrass a pitcher who forgot to call timeout before talking to his catcher by stealing a base, no one calls them a dirty player or accuses them of cheating. It's the pitchers fault for failing to pay attention to the game. Who cares if it's usually "understood" that a pitcher wants a timeout when he talks to the catcher?

If you allow (or encourage) the stealing of directions, where do you draw the line? Why not steal another teams clue or their passports? ? Why not injure or kill them?

Because one is explicitly against the rules, and the others are illegal.

I'd turn that question around. Where do you draw the line for within-the-rules cheating? Is someone who is lost but finds there way when they see another team running the opposite direction a cheater? If I overhear another team blurt out an answer, am I cheating if I use that answer? If two teams are in a foot race to the finish line, but one team sees an easier path, are they cheating if they don't stop and point out that path to their competitor?

My answer is, the line is the rules and the law. If it's not expressly forbidden, it's fair game.

[Nephythys]

Originally Posted by JWBear

Are you honestly telling me that taking something that doesn’t belong to you is not stealing if it’s just sitting there?!?! Try telling that to the police! “But officer… the car was just sitting there in the parking lot. Nobody was in it; I thought it was up for grabs!”

A slip of paper with a few scribbled directions is not an item of value like a car is.
Apples to oranges.

As far as we can tell from the show that slip of paper may have been destined for the trash can- so Rob grabbing it makes no difference anyway. Uchenna was laughing about it- excuse me if I do not share your outrage over Rob picking up a piece of scratch paper.

Again… taking something that does not belong to you is theft. It is wrong. Being in a competition does not excuse theft.

I find it very possible to believe that most teams would not steal from other teams. Most people are basically honest.

Again...taking a piece of scratch paper with directions on it is not a grand felony crime. Some perspective please?

I don't believe for a minute that the other teams would not do the same thing if they felt it would help them get ahead.

Yes, the goal is to win, but there have to be rules, and there have to be limits; otherwise you have anarchy. If you allow (or encourage) the stealing of directions, where do you draw the line? Why not steal another teams clue or their passports? Why not injure or kill them? Anything to win, right?

No- but I chalk that up to hyperbole similar to Uchenna's

I must be old fashioned, but I believe that winning is meaningless if you lie, cheat, and steal to achieve it. Sportsmanship, fair play, having fun, and knowing how to accept defeat gracefully is far more important than whether you win or lose.

I do not agree that they stole anything.
Everyone lies- outright or by omission. I have seen other teams lie to each other in this race- it was not just Rob and Amber.

Rob and Amber dealt with their defeat with infinate grace- and appreciation for the blessings in their life. Class act IMO.

[mousepod]

I once got into an argument with a group of loved ones over a game. We were playing Quiddler, which is a word game played with a special deck of cards. Each player has to use the cards that they're dealt to make words. Whatever letters you don't use are subtracted from your total.

I was dealt a crappy hand, so I knew that the only way I could stay in the game was to bluff, and put down a word that I knew to be false.

You are allowed to consult a dictionary before you play your hand, but not during your turn or if you are challenging someone - the fact that challenges are addressed in the rules made it clear to me that bluffs are part of the game.

So I bluffed.

Nobody challenged me, so the game went on.

A few minutes later, someone picks up a dictionary and accuses me of cheating.

"I didn't cheat. I bluffed."

"That's not how we play the game. We play a friendly game."

Clearly, this debate about the Amazing Race (or more specifically, Rob and Amber), is a debate on the unwritten rules of the game, or "sportsmanship". I understand that JWBear holds "sportsmanlike" values sacrosanct, while Neph and GD seem to appreciate the rules and the limits to which they can be pushed in order to advance in the game.

I shared my story to illustrate how I feel.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Kwyjibo - a big, dumb, balding North American ape. With no chin. And a short temper.

[Nephythys]

LOL!

[JWBear]

I guess it just comes down to those of us who believe in fair play and sportsmanship, and those who don’t - between those of us who prefer to see teams succeed or not based on their own abilities (and not on how good they are at sabotaging their competitors), and those who enjoy the backstabbing that characterizes most other reality shows – and leave it at that.

[Ghoulish Delight]

That's your definition of "fair" and "backstabbing", not mine. I've seen no one do anything "unfair".