Yes, we can.

Cadaverous Pallor · 02-19-2008, 02:30 PM

If you can be proud to be an American in the face of all the awful things America has done in the past few years, THAT troubles me.

Kevy Baby · 02-19-2008, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cadaverous Pallor

If you can be proud to be an American in the face of all the awful things America has done in the past few years, THAT troubles me.

I am proud to be an American, in spite of whatever has happened in the last few years. Why?

Because I live in a country where I can say that I don't like the government without fear of thugs knocking on my door in the middle of the night to drag me and my family away.

Because I live in a country where I am free to read anything I want without it being dictated by my government.

Because I live in a country that does not deny me access to certain parts of the internet.

Because I live in a country where I can have a say in who leads my country and who represents me in government. And while I am just one vote amongst millions, I still get to vote.

I would go on, but my time is limited.

Snowflake · 02-19-2008, 03:22 PM

Kevy you said it so well.

I would only add, speaking for myself, I am proud to be an American, but this does not mean I am proud of the current administration (or lots of things about past administrations).

I'm hopeful about the future, I have to be, I'm a glass half full person.

wendybeth · 02-19-2008, 03:22 PM

I would say I'm grateful and relieved for the things KB listed, but not necessarily proud. Things that make me proud are when people (and country) do good things, things that make me sit back and say "Oh, yeah- wtg!" I suppose I could find plenty to be proud of so far as my country, but in recent years I've been spending far more time cringing rather than glowing. I'm not alone, and tossing the tired old anti-patriotic mantle at people like me is not going to get anyone anywhere. It hasn't thus far, that's for certain.

Motorboat Cruiser · 02-19-2008, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

I am proud to be an American, in spite of whatever has happened in the last few years.

I think the word you are looking for is "fortunate" or "lucky", and they are not synonymous with "pride". Pride is defined as: pleasure or satisfaction taken in something done by or belonging to oneself or believed to reflect credit upon oneself.

I'm not sure you did anything to earn the privilege to call yourself an American, you just got lucky enough to be born here. To me, it's like saying, I'm proud I won the lottery.

ETA: I see others beat me to the punch.

Alex · 02-19-2008, 03:54 PM

It isn't a word that has distinct lines in colloquial use.

What is gay "pride"? Black "pride"? Why would I say to Lani at the completion of a marathon "I'm proud of you"? I can be proud of my good works and charitable giving.

Do all of those have a common element or are they just the same word used for completely different things?

For me, the closest I can come to saying I'm "proud" to be an American is in the same sense of "gay" or "black" pride. Where the meaning isn't so much pride in an accomplishment but pride in the act of refusing to be ashamed of something over which you have no control.

While I wouldn't really say I'm "proud" of being an American, despite attempts by others to feel I should be, I am also not ashamed. I'm not happy with much about this country but I also think it is, overall, at least as good as anywhere else and in certain ways much better (and in certain ways worse).

And to an extent, we are all active participants of this grand thing that is the United States and therefore a certain sense of participatory pride seems appropriate but for that I tend to associate it with certain things. I'm proud of X policy or Y action (particularly if I was somehow involved just beyond being within the sphere of jurisdiction when it happened) but it still seems to me like a really odd construction to just be proud of being an American.

Like I said above, for me the formulation is too much like saying "I'm proud I have a nose." The "pride" I feel at being an American is, I imagine, the same pride I'd feel at being German if I had been born in Germany.

But it is interesting because Lani's relatives were one who were so disappointed in their born culture that they actively sought to leave it and made that commitment and very actively chose to become Americans. So she and I discuss this every year or so, whether her being "proud to be an American" has a very different qualitative element than when someone else says the same thing.

Moonliner · 02-19-2008, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

I am proud to be an American, in spite of whatever has happened in the last few years. Why?

Because I live in a country where I can say that I don't like the government without fear of thugs knocking on my door in the middle of the night to drag me and my family away.

Because I live in a country where I am free to read anything I want without it being dictated by my government.

Because I live in a country that does not deny me access to certain parts of the internet.

Because I live in a country where I can have a say in who leads my country and who represents me in government. And while I am just one vote amongst millions, I still get to vote.

I would go on, but my time is limited.

But there is cause for concern...

wikileaks.org <-- Can you get to that site? No. Your goverment has blocked it.

Kevy Baby · 02-19-2008, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonliner

But there is cause for concern...

wikileaks.org <-- Can you get to that site? No. Your goverment has blocked it.

You and your tin foil hat. One can easily go to that site. Just click here: http://wikileaks.be/wiki/Wikileaks

Moonliner · 02-19-2008, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

You and your tin foil hat. One can easily go to that site. Just click here: http://wikileaks.be/wiki/Wikileaks

Hey Mr. Head in the sand...

Your government, without opposing testimony, ordered an ISP to block all access to a web site and prevented it from moving the domain name to another server. Sure in this case there happen to be foreign mirrors. What if it happened to LoT because some foreign government got pissy about a post?

If you're OK with that then I guess it's my Tin hat VS your blind faith.

Kevy Baby · 02-19-2008, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moonliner

Hey Mr. Head in the sand...

Your government, without opposing testimony, ordered an ISP to block all access to a web site and prevented it from moving the domain name to another server. Sure in this case there happen to be foreign mirrors. What if it happened to LoT because some foreign government got pissy about a post?

If you're OK with that then I guess it's my Tin hat VS your blind faith.

Without reading the entire history of the whys and whatfors, I cannot argue with nor corroborate the claims. And I have no intention to. No system is perfect: you will find holes in it.

Besides, the site was taken down because they were posting BANKING DOCUMENTS with personal information. From what I can read of the one story, it appears that these documents were obtained illegally (they were not public documents). The site refused to take down the illegally acquired documents, so the court was not only right in allowing this site from being taken down but was (IMO) obligated top do so.

I may be reading a little more into the article than is actually there, but I feel confident that I am pretty close.

02-19-2008, 02:30 PM	#1
Cadaverous Pallor ohhhh baby Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Parental Bliss Posts: 12,364	If you can be proud to be an American in the face of all the awful things America has done in the past few years, THAT troubles me. __________________ The second star to the right shines in the night for you
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02-19-2008, 03:22 PM	#3
Snowflake lost in the fog Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: San Francisco Posts: 7,831	Kevy you said it so well. I would only add, speaking for myself, I am proud to be an American, but this does not mean I am proud of the current administration (or lots of things about past administrations). I'm hopeful about the future, I have to be, I'm a glass half full person.
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02-19-2008, 03:22 PM	#4
wendybeth Nevermind Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,847	I would say I'm grateful and relieved for the things KB listed, but not necessarily proud. Things that make me proud are when people (and country) do good things, things that make me sit back and say "Oh, yeah- wtg!" I suppose I could find plenty to be proud of so far as my country, but in recent years I've been spending far more time cringing rather than glowing. I'm not alone, and tossing the tired old anti-patriotic mantle at people like me is not going to get anyone anywhere. It hasn't thus far, that's for certain. __________________
	Submit to Quotes

02-19-2008, 03:54 PM	#6
Alex . Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 13,354	It isn't a word that has distinct lines in colloquial use. What is gay "pride"? Black "pride"? Why would I say to Lani at the completion of a marathon "I'm proud of you"? I can be proud of my good works and charitable giving. Do all of those have a common element or are they just the same word used for completely different things? For me, the closest I can come to saying I'm "proud" to be an American is in the same sense of "gay" or "black" pride. Where the meaning isn't so much pride in an accomplishment but pride in the act of refusing to be ashamed of something over which you have no control. While I wouldn't really say I'm "proud" of being an American, despite attempts by others to feel I should be, I am also not ashamed. I'm not happy with much about this country but I also think it is, overall, at least as good as anywhere else and in certain ways much better (and in certain ways worse). And to an extent, we are all active participants of this grand thing that is the United States and therefore a certain sense of participatory pride seems appropriate but for that I tend to associate it with certain things. I'm proud of X policy or Y action (particularly if I was somehow involved just beyond being within the sphere of jurisdiction when it happened) but it still seems to me like a really odd construction to just be proud of being an American. Like I said above, for me the formulation is too much like saying "I'm proud I have a nose." The "pride" I feel at being an American is, I imagine, the same pride I'd feel at being German if I had been born in Germany. But it is interesting because Lani's relatives were one who were so disappointed in their born culture that they actively sought to leave it and made that commitment and very actively chose to become Americans. So she and I discuss this every year or so, whether her being "proud to be an American" has a very different qualitative element than when someone else says the same thing.
	Submit to Quotes