Yes, we can.

[Sub la Goon]

I have been looking for a way to properly explain or articulate Obabma's (very correct IMO) statements about bitterness.

I think Alex has hit it right on the head.



Also, I find it obnoxiously offensive for either Hillary or McCain to use the word "elitist" against anyone else. The hyprocrisy of those 2 never ends.

[Strangler Lewis]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

If this is what he meant and should have said, then you are saying it would be acceptable to equate religion and gun ownership with the gang culture in terms of being "harmful to community and national cohesion"? That would be even more stupid to say, I believe. Then he wouldn't just be calling religion and gun ownership a crutch, he'd be calling them bad. He may very well think that, but the vast majority of Americans don't.

Just because something can be defended as a cherished constitutional freedom does not mean it can't be culturally damaging and debasing. In the free speech context, we have pornography. Freedom of religion and the right to bear arms certainly have their porn, too. While we would not prosecute it, we are right to be critical of it.

And what Obama said is straight Bowling for Columbine.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis

And what Obama said is straight Bowling for Columbine.

Or Thomas Frank.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by Alex

There is nothing inherently harmful in gun ownership and religion. But I do think that many people, when they aren't given a way to fulfill themselves begin to use external indicators such as group participations to build themselves up and exclude others. This is harmful to community and national cohesion.

If that is the end game of such participation, being the exclusion of others, then I can see that as being harmful to community. However, are gun owners gun owners so that they can feel superior to others? I guess it could be, but I don't see it that way. Are religious people religious so that they can feel superior? More often than I would like, indeed, but calling a religion exclusionary is a fine line - if one wishes to subscribe to the tenets of a religion that person is not often excluded from it.

There may be truth in what he said as you have explained it Alex, but someone who is as eloquent as he is needs to be more careful about soundind elitist. It may not bother you, but most of America is bothered by it, which is why he is and has been taking heat for it.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by Strangler Lewis

And what Obama said is straight Bowling for Columbine.

I'm sure he'll enjoy the linkages to Michael Moore on the campaign trail.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

If that is the end game of such participation, being the exclusion of others, then I can see that as being harmful to community. However, are gun owners gun owners so that they can feel superior to others? I guess it could be, but I don't see it that way. Are religious people religious so that they can feel superior? More often than I would like, indeed, but calling a religion exclusionary is a fine line - if one wishes to subscribe to the tenets of a religion that person is not often excluded from it.

He was specifically talking about a subset of people who, due to economic pressure, turn to those things. It doesn't even take a reinterpretation of what he said to see that he was not referring to ALL gun owners or ALL religious people.

There may be truth in what he said as you have explained it Alex, but someone who is as eloquent as he is needs to be more careful about soundind elitist. It may not bother you, but most of America is bothered by it, which is why he is and has been taking heat for it.

This is true, and he is in the delicate position that since he IS usually so eloquent, the slightest slip up is going to be magnified. But at least this slip up is the result of being a little too honest and just not explaining it well rather than, say, certain other people who "misspeak" by telling flat out lies and continuing to lie about it after being caught lying.

[JWBear]

I don't think he misspoke at all. He told the truth, and there are few things the American people hate more than being told truths they do not want to deal with.

[CoasterMatt]

If Hillary does that condescending head nod one more time.... GRRR

Talk to voters as grownups, not freakin' preschoolers.

[JWBear]

I love this quote I just read online

Oh yes, Obama made a terrible mistake. He told the truth... You'll never catch her (Hillary) making a mistake like that..

So true!

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by CoasterMatt

If Hillary does that condescending head nod one more time.... GRRR

Talk to voters as grownups, not freakin' preschoolers.

I loved how she got booed and heckled by the teamsters.