Yes, we can. - Page 132

Ghoulish Delight · 06-30-2008, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I think it does to the masses, though. To equate slaery or the holocaust with denial of state sanctioned marriages doesn't play well to Joe on the corner.

Oh, I don't deny that, I fully understand WHY the perception is what it is. I just think it's wrong.

innerSpaceman · 07-01-2008, 12:23 AM

And perhaps that's why we DID have to wait (and I'm not complaining) until women were given the vote, and stopped being so blatently discriminated against in employment (though they still don't make dollar for dollar with men), and had to wait until blacks were freed from slavery, freed from Jim Crow, given fair housing, employment and voting rights under the law.

That's just under the law, of course. Hearts and minds will take centuries, perhaps, to catch up to that. Because people of color are still taking dehumanizing sh!t every day of their lives.

But, ok, so now let the law catch up to gays, and let the clock on centuries of waiting for hearts and minds and TRUE equality start ticking.

And ya know what, our oppression may be a little less than that of blacks ... but it sucks hard being the last remaining minority it's ok to openly hate. Like we are the lowest of the low, the dregs of every society. You can't come out against any other racial or ethnic group ... but in too many parts of our society, it's still alright to hate faggots.

And yeah, marriage rights might seem trifling. We wouldn't bother if we hadn't already tackled housing and employment rights ... in the law, if not in practice. Enough. Time for the full and totally equality guaranteed us by the Constitution and ours as inalienable by virture of our humanity.

Moreso, it's not about where we live this time, or how we work ... but about who we love, the essence of our gayness. We WILL have that legitimized by society ... because it IS LEGITIMATE TO BE GAY.

wendybeth · 07-01-2008, 12:45 AM

Visible iSm mojo.

I can't imagine how horrible it would be to love someone absolutely and be denied the same rights that other couples are afforded- you have to remember, this goes above and beyond simply pledging oneself to another. Heterosexual spouses have rights under the law that supersede parental; in other words, the family of one spouse can't deny you the right to see your loved one in the hospital, or take away material possessions should they pass, or .........the list goes on and on. Then there is the basic human dignity aspect which iSm addresses- it's absolute bull**** in this day and age that gay people have to hide their orientation or face serious persecution. I think this is just a sliver of the pile of merde they have to deal with in life, and I think it's flat out wrong. Not just from my own ethical standpoint, but legally as well. I really do believe this is the last frontier of civil rights and one who's time has finally come.

Strangler Lewis · 07-01-2008, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I think it does to the masses, though. To equate slaery or the holocaust with denial of state sanctioned marriages doesn't play well to Joe on the corner.

Average Joe on the corner may be right, and, like many, he may profess not to give a sh*t one way or the other.

One would think, however, that Lunatic Joe, who feels that [i]his[i] precious marital rights are being trampled upon by the prospect of gay marriage might be able to pause for a moment and think about how the other side feels.

scaeagles · 07-01-2008, 04:39 AM

I didn't say Joe was anti gay marriage. I said Joe has a hard time equating slavery et al to marriage issues.

Strangler Lewis · 07-01-2008, 05:17 AM

And I agreed that average Joe may not care one way or the other, but that plenty of lunatic Joes approach the "assault on traditional marriage" with the passion appropriate to a civil rights issue.

Though I may disagree with the goals, that kind of passion seems appropriate to the anti abortion movement. The anti-gay marriage folks just look like a bunch of unreconstructed racists.

scaeagles · 07-01-2008, 06:03 AM

I misread your earlier post and was equating your Average Joe with your Lunatic Joe. What can I say? It was 4:30 in the morning.

innerSpaceman · 07-01-2008, 07:28 AM

I hate to go all George Bush ... but I'm beginning to feel you're either with us or you're against us, and I've got no patience for Average Joe if his don't give a sh!t attitude leads to Status-Quo Is OK By Me at the voting booth in November.*

I'm afraid I'll have to trust that Average Cal is a little more enlightened than Average Joe, but I'm nervous about that.

* Actually, the current status-quo is Gay Marriage Is Legal ... but I don't think that's the status-quo that Average Joe is used to yet.

BarTopDancer · 07-01-2008, 02:26 PM

Obama opposes the marriage ban amendment!

Bornieo: Fully Loaded · 07-01-2008, 02:49 PM

I think every person in the USA should list 10 issues they have with the universe from Women's rights to Gay Marriage to trash on Thursdays to the exicution of the cast of THat's So Raven - anything. Compile the list and the top 10 is what we go with. Then everyone should shut the hell up and move on...

07-01-2008, 12:23 AM	#1312
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	And perhaps that's why we DID have to wait (and I'm not complaining) until women were given the vote, and stopped being so blatently discriminated against in employment (though they still don't make dollar for dollar with men), and had to wait until blacks were freed from slavery, freed from Jim Crow, given fair housing, employment and voting rights under the law. That's just under the law, of course. Hearts and minds will take centuries, perhaps, to catch up to that. Because people of color are still taking dehumanizing sh!t every day of their lives. But, ok, so now let the law catch up to gays, and let the clock on centuries of waiting for hearts and minds and TRUE equality start ticking. And ya know what, our oppression may be a little less than that of blacks ... but it sucks hard being the last remaining minority it's ok to openly hate. Like we are the lowest of the low, the dregs of every society. You can't come out against any other racial or ethnic group ... but in too many parts of our society, it's still alright to hate faggots. And yeah, marriage rights might seem trifling. We wouldn't bother if we hadn't already tackled housing and employment rights ... in the law, if not in practice. Enough. Time for the full and totally equality guaranteed us by the Constitution and ours as inalienable by virture of our humanity. Moreso, it's not about where we live this time, or how we work ... but about who we love, the essence of our gayness. We WILL have that legitimized by society ... because it IS LEGITIMATE TO BE GAY.
	Submit to Quotes

07-01-2008, 12:45 AM	#1313
wendybeth Nevermind Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,847	Visible iSm mojo. I can't imagine how horrible it would be to love someone absolutely and be denied the same rights that other couples are afforded- you have to remember, this goes above and beyond simply pledging oneself to another. Heterosexual spouses have rights under the law that supersede parental; in other words, the family of one spouse can't deny you the right to see your loved one in the hospital, or take away material possessions should they pass, or .........the list goes on and on. Then there is the basic human dignity aspect which iSm addresses- it's absolute bull**** in this day and age that gay people have to hide their orientation or face serious persecution. I think this is just a sliver of the pile of merde they have to deal with in life, and I think it's flat out wrong. Not just from my own ethical standpoint, but legally as well. I really do believe this is the last frontier of civil rights and one who's time has finally come. __________________
	Submit to Quotes

07-01-2008, 04:39 AM	#1315
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	I didn't say Joe was anti gay marriage. I said Joe has a hard time equating slavery et al to marriage issues.
	Submit to Quotes

07-01-2008, 05:17 AM	#1316
Strangler Lewis Doing The Job Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: In a state Posts: 3,956	And I agreed that average Joe may not care one way or the other, but that plenty of lunatic Joes approach the "assault on traditional marriage" with the passion appropriate to a civil rights issue. Though I may disagree with the goals, that kind of passion seems appropriate to the anti abortion movement. The anti-gay marriage folks just look like a bunch of unreconstructed racists. __________________ Live now-pay later. Diner's Club!
	Submit to Quotes

07-01-2008, 06:03 AM	#1317
scaeagles I LIKE! Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,819	I misread your earlier post and was equating your Average Joe with your Lunatic Joe. What can I say? It was 4:30 in the morning.
	Submit to Quotes

07-01-2008, 07:28 AM	#1318
innerSpaceman Kink of Swank Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Inner Space Posts: 13,075	I hate to go all George Bush ... but I'm beginning to feel you're either with us or you're against us, and I've got no patience for Average Joe if his don't give a sh!t attitude leads to Status-Quo Is OK By Me at the voting booth in November.* I'm afraid I'll have to trust that Average Cal is a little more enlightened than Average Joe, but I'm nervous about that. * Actually, the current status-quo is Gay Marriage Is Legal ... but I don't think that's the status-quo that Average Joe is used to yet.
	Submit to Quotes

07-01-2008, 02:26 PM	#1319
BarTopDancer Prepping... Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Here, there, everywhere Posts: 11,405	Obama opposes the marriage ban amendment! __________________ Spork is the new MacGyver Postcards From My Edge
	Submit to Quotes

07-01-2008, 02:49 PM	#1320
Bornieo: Fully Loaded Lego Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Disneyland, USA Posts: 3,704	I think every person in the USA should list 10 issues they have with the universe from Women's rights to Gay Marriage to trash on Thursdays to the exicution of the cast of THat's So Raven - anything. Compile the list and the top 10 is what we go with. Then everyone should shut the hell up and move on...
	Submit to Quotes