Ta Ta Jesse Helms

[Gemini Cricket]

Originally Posted by LSPoorEeyorick

Well, yes, and I quite agree. But my point is: he didn't. He thought that just by being engaging in homosexual activity, they were doing evil. I'm certainly not defending his point of view - just pointing out that not much can be gained by the "OK to talk **** about the evil" argument. Evil is in the eye of the beholder, and he believed his POV just as strongly as you believe yours.

So I'm not going to go by the "OK to talk **** about the evil" rule - I'm going to go by my person rule: be respectful but honest. So: honestly and respectfully, Mr. Helms, we always disagreed and the things you said made me angry. I'm not mourning your death but I'm not celebrating it either.

Nothing can be gained? The one thing that can be gained is the reminding people (be it four days later or four years later) of what a scumbag this guy was. There's no way I would want history to remember him as some sort of hero. The country can move forward when we identify where we went wrong in the past and not make the same mistakes again. If Helms is that identifier, then so be it.

What exactly has Helms done to earn your respect? Or is it the thinking that one should be respectful of the dead? (BTW, I'm not mad at LSPE, I am challenging her stance.) He hasn't earned my respect.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

What exactly has Helms done to earn your respect? Or is it the thinking that one should be respectful of the dead? (BTW, I'm not mad at LSPE, I am challenging her stance.) He hasn't earned my respect.

She never said that Helms earned her respect. All she's saying is that saying you are justified in what you say because "he's evil" is circular logic that's not going to convince anyone of anything. YOU think he's evil, that does not make it any more true than the fact that HE believed you're evil for being homosexual.

[LSPoorEeyorick]

Originally Posted by Gemini Cricket

Nothing can be gained? The one thing that can be gained is the reminding people (be it four days later or four years later) of what a scumbag this guy was. There's no way I would want history to remember him as some sort of hero. The country can move forward when we identify where we went wrong in the past and not make the same mistakes again. If Helms is that identifier, then so be it.

What exactly has Helms done to earn your respect? Or is it the thinking that one should be respectful of the dead? (BTW, I'm not mad at LSPE, I am challenging her stance.) He hasn't earned my respect.

Well, for starters, I try - often fail, but try - to treat everyone with respect because in my personal belief system (nothing specific, just what I've cobbled together. DIY religion!) it's important to not put bad energy out into the universe. Helms and others have put enough out there already. Did you see anything wrong with my statement? I said I disagree with the man, and that he made me angry, and that I don't mourn his death. It's my prerogative not to celebrate it if I choose - just as it's yours to choose to celebrate it.

Absolutely, we should sing to the rooftops about how people made it difficult for human progress, and we should find ways to reach higher, better places as new generations grow. I think talking about Helms and his cohorts is a very good way to do that. I just am noting that calling him "evil" and using that as reasoning to speak out isn't all that different from him calling you evil, GC. You're both doing things that each other finds despicable. And calling each other evil isn't a good way to change people's minds, in my experience.

Call me an idealist, call me naive - but I think that the best way through any conflict, be it Helms v. Gay Multiracial Babies or the Iraq war, is to strive to listen to what the other side is saying and accept it as their core belief. And then - and this is the key - to prove to them, personally, that things are different than they might think. No, we can't exactly do that to Helms now that he's gone, or even when he was alive, be it because he was so fundamental that it wouldn't help, or we wouldn't have had the access.

But we have to start small. Ripples echo and grow.

I grew up with a homophobic mom and a gay best friend. She was kind to him, but for a long time she believed that the act of gay sex was morally wrong. I started small. Over years we discussed my gay friends and the very supportive happy gay relationships I've witnessed. I got her to a place where she understood that if a gay couple were committed or married, it wouldn't be any different than if a straight couple were. She's learned not to fear or pity or pray for "the gay." Because there's nothing wrong with it.

Yep, Helms did terrible things in the name of his own moral code. And I don't appreciate it one bit. Still, I'm simply not going to use the word "celebrate" in this context. Instead, I'm going to teach my children to love and respect others - and I'm going to try to do that by example. And I'm going to try to use personal examples to demonstrate to the frightened people around me that gay people/Muslim people/black people/yes, even conservative people... are different than their fears might lead them to believe.

[Gemini Cricket]

LSPE ~ I see what you are saying. I found that to be such an eloquent post.