WTF Stories of the Week

[Ghoulish Delight]

I don't disagree with your view.

But to play a bit of devils advocate for a moment, because heterosexuality is the overwhelming majority, gays do end up having to be more overt about their "declarations" of their sexuality. If a straight man is hanging out in a typical bar, hoping to perhaps meet a prospective dating partner, they don't need to do anything in particular to attract the attention of said prospective partners. Whereas a homosexual man is likely to do something "out of the ordinary" to actively identify themselves as homosexual to be noticeable to their set of prospective targets.

People are assumed hetero by default, if someone wants to be quickly recognized as homosexual, it's going to take some sort of overt display.

This is just the reality of the fact that you're only about 10% of the population. It's a necessity of the circumstances.

The divergence comes with those that decide that ANY such display is de facto "wrong" and "inappropriate". I disagree with that assessment, obviously. But knowing human behavior, and the fact that we are generally hardwired to distrust things that are out of the ordinary, it's not a particularly surprising result that a large number of people have a negative reaction. The hope would be that bringing continued attention to the inequity will eventually raise the public conscience to the fact that it's not "inappropriate", even if it is conspicuous. But I do understand, when heterosexuality is the default, and part of the background noise, people have difficulty recognizing that overt "declarations" of homosexuality aren't done out of a desire to be inappropriate.

Afterall, wouldn't people look at someone who walks around saying, "Hi, I'm straight" pretty funny?

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by Moonliner

Define: Mentioned
A speaking or notice of anything, usually in a brief or cursory manner. Used especially in the phrase to make mention of.

Define: Proclaimed
To excitedly, verbosely and candidly describe

I don't think Betty proclaims her sexuality on a regular basis. Nor do I think the X-Box gal proclaimed hers.

Originally Posted by JWBear

Semantic pedantry is what one falls back on when one has no valid argument.

Originally Posted by Moonliner

Or abuses when trying to make a point irregardless of the facts.

Okay, I almost didn't post this because it such a "me too" post, but I gotta chime in that I am with Moonie on this one.

And GD's follow-up as well.

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

Okay, I almost didn't post this because it such a "me too" post, but I gotta chime in that I am with Moonie on this one.

And GD's follow-up as well.

Then you too are missing the point.

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by JWBear

Then you too are missing the point.

No I'm not. I just disagree with some of it.

We're on the same side of the fence on the fact that there are bigots out there.

But I disagree with your "Semantic pedantry" position.

Why must people who support gay rights (which I believe almost every active poster on this board is) be subject to attack for being a breeder?

That I hold my wife's hand in public or refer to my wife in conversation, etc. does not mean I am flaunting it. I am not going to suppress who I am.

I am sorry that homosexuals are attacked (from glares to physical violence) for the simple displays of affection in public that heterosexuals can enjoy. I will be the first person to come to your defense when a bigot makes him/herself known (I've even yelled at a family member for such bigotry). But don't berate me for the fact that I can and don't expect me to stop.

Originally Posted by JWBear

You, personally, are not to blame for the double standard. I never said that. All I ask of anyone is to keep in mind that it exists, and to not feed into it.

Do you really think that anyone here (on LoT) does otherwise? I've seen no evidence of it.

[Not Afraid]

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

I am sorry that homosexuals are attacked (from glares to physical violence) for the simple displays of affection in public that heterosexuals can enjoy. I will be the first person to come to your defense when a bigot makes him/herself known (I've even yelled at a family member for such bigotry). But don't berate me for the fact that I can and don't expect me to stop.

And, this is the same root of the issue we discussed much earlier involving recognition of marriage.

I was comparing this recently to other things that one "cannot" do and how far friends and loved ones should be expected to go to be "supportive". I'm a sober alcoholic. I don't drink alcohol at all. However, many of my friends and my husband does. Would I expect them to not drink around me because I'm sober? Heck no! I expect them to not offer me a drink, but the issue is mine and it's up to me to not drink no matter WHAT circumstances surround me.

I know many couples where one is a vegetarian and the other is a meatatarian. Is one supposed to completely change their preferred diet to match the other one? Heck no.

People are free to do what they want in life (legally) and deal with the consequences of their choices. Depending on others to "get on your bandwagon" or "approve of your choice" or "change their own lives to fit the ideals of others" are pretty fu<ked up IMHO.

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

No I'm not. I just disagree with some of it.

We're on the same side of the fence on the fact that there are bigots out there.

But I disagree with your "Semantic pedantry" position.

Why must people who support gay rights (which I believe almost every active poster on this board is) be subject to attack for being a breeder?

That I hold my wife's hand in public or refer to my wife in conversation, etc. does not mean I am flaunting it. I am not going to suppress who I am.

I am sorry that homosexuals are attacked (from glares to physical violence) for the simple displays of affection in public that heterosexuals can enjoy. I will be the first person to come to your defense when a bigot makes him/herself known (I've even yelled at a family member for such bigotry). But don't berate me for the fact that I can and don't expect me to stop.

Do you really think that anyone here (on LoT) does otherwise? I've seen no evidence of it.

Please re-read my posts, and then quote for me where I attacked anyone or asked them to stop displaying any references to their sexuality. Please. Anyone?

All I am trying to do is point out that straight people display their sexuality in numerous ways - day in and day out - whether they realize it or not. And that any attempt by gay people to display their sexuality in a similar manner is looked on by society as inappropriate. A double standard.

That, and only that, is my point. If you read anything else in what I said, then you are missing the point – spectacularly.

[Disneyphile]

Originally Posted by JWBear

And that any attempt by gay people to display their sexuality in a similar manner is looked on by society as inappropriate. A double standard.

And, that's why I think gays should hold hands/kiss/etc. in public just as much as straights do, regardless of how they are looked upon, because once it happens often enough, it will blend into the mainstream.

Take a look at interracial couples for example. Appearing together in public was hard for many people to swallow, but as it became more common, society finally started to relax a bit.

Don't let the thoughts of others govern your freedoms that they CAN'T take away - the freedom to love, the freedom to be together, the freedom of affection wherever and whenever. That is what will truly help in gaining the freedoms that can be governed by society. Because, once it's no longer a "big deal", it won't be.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by JWBear

Do you really think that is the only way in which you call attention to your sexuality? I don’t walk around saying, "Hi, I'm gay", but I have held Bill’s hand in public; and gotten angry and disgusted looks for it. How about you and CP? Not so much, I expect.

Originally Posted by JWBear

Then you too are missing the point.

And you've missed my point. No, I don't think there is only one way that people glean sexuality. My POINT is that, being the minority, the cues that homosexuals end up by necessity using to call attention to their sexuality are by comparison, overt, explicit, and "in your face" because, by definition, they are different than what we see 90% of the time.

Even if same sex marriage becomes legal and commonplace among same sex couples, a man saying, "This is my husband" is going to stand out as "not normal" because 90% of men don't have husbands.

That's my only point. As I said, and Moonliner said, and Betty said, we still consider XBox's reaction wrong. Considering those kinds of overt declarations "inappropriate" is wrong. But no amount of social acceptance is going to change the fact that a large majority of people are heterosexual, that assuming heterosexuality is a rational default, and that idenfying yourself as homosexual is going to remain a conspicuous departure from "normal" (and by "normal" I mean "commonplace") conversation.

ETA: Of course, that's why the media can hold such power. It's a way to artificially skew that ratio higher so that it DOES become more commonplace.

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

And you've missed my point. No, I don't think there is only one way that people glean sexuality. My POINT is that, being the minority, the cuse that homosexuals end up by necessity using to call attention to their sexuality are by comparison, overt, explicit, and "in your face" because, by definition, they are different than what we see 90% of the time.

Even if same sex marriage becomes legal and commonplace among same sex couples, a man saying, "This is my husband" is going to stand out as "not normal" because 90% of men don't have husbands.

That's my only point. As I said, and Moonliner said, and Betty said, we still consider XBox's reaction wrong. Considering those kinds of overt declarations "inappropriate" is wrong. But no amount of social acceptance is going to change the fact that a large majority of people are heterosexual, that assuming heterosexuality is a rational default, and that idenfying yourself as homosexual is going to remain a conspicuous departure from "normal" (and by "normal" I mean "commonplace") conversation.

Normal is relative. To me, a same sex couple holding hands is not, and should not be "overt, explicit, and "in your face"". To me, it is normal. No different than an opposite sex couple doing the same thing.

But again, beside the point. What I object to is that same opposite sex couple claiming that they are not displaying their sexuality when they hold hands, but then tells me I am flaunting mine when I hold hands with my boyfriend. Can you not see the double standard there?

To me, it's like telling blacks that we whites fully support their equal rights as human beings, but then insist they cover up their dark skin because it's not "normal", and is "flaunting" their race.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by JWBear

But again, beside the point. What I object to is that same opposite sex couple claiming that they are not displaying their sexuality when they hold hands, but then tells me I am flaunting mine when I hold hands with my boyfriend. Can you not see the double standard there?

Yes, I can and I've said (third time) that I don't think it is flaunting or inappropriate.

But we're not talking about holding hands or kissing, or talking about your significant other. We're talking about a specific instance, saying, "I'm a lesbian," by way of describing yourself. There's no direct analog. Yes, saying, "My wife and I have been married for 3 years," on one level serves the same purpose. But to people who don't want to be tolerant, who want to find excuses to discriminate, it's easy for them to say, " You don't see me saying, "I'm straight" in my profile, do you?"

Denying the reality that there are actual, practical differences in the way things are communicated, to my eye, is counter productive. It'll just make people dig in. It gives them an easy excuse to say, "See, you're insisting on being treated differently and getting away with acting differently!"

The way I see it, it's better to confront and own those differences. "Yes, I DO occasionally have to be overt about it. You may be able to use the standard givens of society as an easy, effortless way to communicate what you want, but that doesn't work for me, so get over it. I'm not doing it to rub your face in it, I'm doing it because I have no other way to do what you do without even thinking about it."