The random political thoughts thread (Part Deux)

[Alex]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

First of all, I never said I was completely for the law. However, I do think that this is being blown completely out of porportion be people who haven't read it.

I have read it. It is a truly awful law (though I won't go so far as to say it was taken from Nazis as I don't believe it was).

And Kris Kobach as quoted in that article is repeating what he said in his NYT op-ed and it is misleading.

What fewer people have noticed is the phrase "lawful contact," which defines what must be going on before police even think about checking immigration status. "That means the officer is already engaged in some detention of an individual because he's violated some other law," says Kris Kobach, a University of Missouri Kansas City Law School professor who helped draft the measure. "The most likely context where this law would come into play is a traffic stop."

That's simply misleading. Lawful contact is much broader than that. Asking a policeman for directions is lawful contact. Entering a police station to report a crime is lawful contact. Being a passenger in a car going through a sobriety checkpoint is lawful contact. If the desire was to limit to giving tickets or when dealing with another crime committed by the suspected illegal immigrant then they should have written the bill that way.

As far as "reasonable suspicion" is concerned, there is a great deal of case law dealing with the idea, but in immigration matters, it means a combination of circumstances that, taken together, cause the officer to suspect lawbreaking.

Do you know why there's a great deal of caselaw on this issue? Because nobody can agree on what "reasonable suspicion" is and are therefore constantly litigating it.

It's not race -- Arizona's new law specifically says race and ethnicity cannot be the sole factors in determining a reasonable suspicion.

It does say that. Personally I don't think it is any improvement say it was because you were walking on the side of the road, drinking Hecho en Mexico Coca Cola and looked Hispanic.

For example: "Arizona already has a state law on human smuggling," says Kobach. "An officer stops a group of people in a car that is speeding. The car is overloaded. Nobody had identification. The driver acts evasively. They are on a known smuggling corridor." That is a not uncommon occurrence in Arizona, and any officer would reasonably suspect that the people in the car were illegal. Under the new law, the officer would get in touch with U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement to check on their status.

A. Since there is no requirement that citizens carry any papers, on what reasonable suspicion did the police officer act in determining that none of the passengers had identification? It is a bit of circular logic to say that lack of identification when none is legally required is evidence of illegal lack of identification.

B. Just how long are you, as a citizen of the United States, allowed to be detained while you're identity is confirmed? Even though there is no legal requirement that a citizen be able to provide evidence of citizenship during random encounters with the authorities ?

But what if the driver of the car had shown the officer his driver's license? The law clearly says that if someone produces a valid Arizona driver's license, or other state-issued identification, they are presumed to be here legally. There's no reasonable suspicion.

That's backwards, the reasonable suspicion was eliminated by action only required if there's reasonable suspicion (for the passengers, obviously a driver has to produce a drivers license). It doesn't say whether producing a Mexican drivers license constitutes reasonable suspicion since Mexican tourists will often be traveling that way.

Is having to produce a driver's license too burdensome? These days, natural-born U.S. citizens, and everybody else, too, are required to show a driver's license to get on an airplane, to check into a hotel, even to purchase some over-the-counter allergy medicines. If it's a burden, it's a burden on everyone.

First, there is no legal requirement that a person actually have any form of ID. I have a friend who lived in California for a decade without a drivers license (he didn't drive) and he never got a California state ID card when his Washington State ID card expired. Hope he never gets pulled over as a passenger in Arizona where a cop thinks he talks funny.

Second, is that really the treshhold? Because there are some times you'll have to show ID it is ok for it to be expected any time?



To use the example given in that article, me and 12 of my Hispanic friends, all born in Seattle, decide to visit my grandmother in Yuma. I'm driving. One of my friends forgets his wallet but that's fine because we'll cover him on the expenses and he can pay us back when we get home. Somewhere around Tucson (we got lost and are trying to make up time) I get pulled over for speeding. THe police officer decides this overly crowded vehicle appears to be full of Mexicans and their gringo coyote. How long will my ID-less (and not legally required to have ID) friend going to be detained while the police officer contacts ICE to confirm identity and me, as a suspected human smuggler?

And if it won't be race based, how much less will I have to fear if instead I fill my car with friends from Toronto, all in the country illegally?

[JWBear]

Puma County Sheriff will not enforce new immigration law

[JWBear]

[innerSpaceman]

And heheh, Lady Liberty started out brown-skinned, and only greenified with age.

[alphabassettgrrl]

Ha!!! Good point.

[wendybeth]

Excellent post, Alex- VAM.

[Alex]

Figured I'd share a response to the Arizona bill that might have some resonance here:

Q: Do you agree with the recently passed law in Arizona that empowers law enforcement officials to check whether a person being stopped or detained is a U.S. citizen? It's not my place to agree or disagree.

A: I understand why it was passed and why 70 percent of the people of Arizona support it. They're angry, they're frustrated, and they're scared. There are a half-million illegals who have poured into their state. ... They feel under siege, and I understand that. What does concerns me is that if it's not carried out and applied carefully, you could end up in the situation where people are indiscriminately stopped who are absolute citizens. ... America is a lot like Disney World in that once you get a ticket, you're in. You don't have to keep showing your ticket to keep riding the rides. That's the whole point of liberty.

[innerSpaceman]

Cute ... but what an ignorant analogy. We weren't denied any liberty when each attraction required a ticket - and you had to not only keep showing them, had to keep buying them throughout the day? More inconvenient, maybe. I wonder if it would work out cheaper than the roughly hundred bucks it takes you to have full "liberty" at a Disney park nowadays.

I don't see how the ticket book system was racist. So person A is a dope. (though of course, his simple analogy that would pass muster with 99% of casual Americans has an instantly-recognizable point.)

[wendybeth]

I think the author was referring to the current system, iSm, not the former.

[Alex]

Yeah, he's saying citizenship is like the current system at Disney World, you don't have to continuously provide proof you belong (the obvious hole is that while as a practical matter you'll only ever be asked for such proof when trying to get back in, just like the new Arizona law if at any time Disney security decides they have reason to suspect you don't actually belong they could ask for confirmation and eject you if you can't provide it, even if you had purchased a ticket).

It does not carry that he's saying that the ticket book system was racist.