Lost!

[Ghoulish Delight]

We don't know for sure that Ben didn't make it. Maybe he's with Sun and Sayid.
We saw Ben last episode. He's unconscious with the injured from flight 316. Locke: "He's the man who killed me."

[BarTopDancer]

We saw Ben last episode. He's unconscious with the injured from flight 316. Locke: "He's the man who killed me."

Oh ya.


Did anyone else catch the name of the woman who gave birth? Pretty sure it was Annie (and what else has that actress been in? It's driving me crazy!)

[Ghoulish Delight]

Amy.

Reiko Aylesworth (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0043855/)
(she's been on 24)

[Ghoulish Delight]

So Lostpedia reminded me of some stuff about Horace. I remembered that we'd seen him before in the episode(s?) about Ben's arrival on the island, and the purge and all that. I'd forgotten that he was the one who built Jacob's cabin and whose corpse had the blueprints for said cabin.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Also, The O6 ended up in 1977 with Saywer (excuse me... "LaFleur") et al. Ben and Locke did not. Interesting.Wait, when we see Locke with the New Plane people, they are on the beach, with the canoes. I'm totally lost as to when we saw the canoes there before, timewise, but it's definitely not post-Losties camp. Seems to me the New Plane and Locke are there in 1977, same as the O6, just on the beach side of the island (which we know is far from the Dharma compound).

[JWBear]

Wait, when we see Locke with the New Plane people, they are on the beach, with the canoes. I'm totally lost as to when we saw the canoes there before, timewise, but it's definitely not post-Losties camp. Seems to me the New Plane and Locke are there in 1977, same as the O6, just on the beach side of the island (which we know is far from the Dharma compound).

Locke, Ben, and the rest of the flight 316 are at the Hydra station – the same station Jack was being held at by the Others, and where he operated on Ben. In 1977, this station was (relatively) brand new, and was still fully staffed by DI (and polar bears!). In the scenes with the 316ers, it has obviously been abandoned and looks even more rundown than when the Others were using it. Ergo, the 316ers landed on the Island in “current” time – late 2007/early 2008.

[bewitched]

Wait, when we see Locke with the New Plane people, they are on the beach, with the canoes. I'm totally lost as to when we saw the canoes there before, timewise, but it's definitely not post-Losties camp.

It was in the episode when Sawyer saw Kate and Claire when Claire was giving birth. Remember, they walked back to beach and it was all wrecked and there were a couple of canoes with an Ajira Airways water bottle. They took the canoes part of the way to the Orchid station and got shot at from another canoe.

Looking on IMDB, it was the 4th episode this season, "The Little Prince"

eta: Since it was when they were still time jumping, it was a post Losties camp, we just didn't know (at the time) that it was the Ajira camp...we just assumed it was the Oceanic camp that had been trashed (or at least I did). And personally, I think Locke (and Ben) are current time, as is the Ajira camp.

[bewitched]

A review I just read got me thinking (it was about how various seasons seem to be the yin/yang of each other)...and I may be on a totally wrong path...but does Milton's Paradise Lost and Paradise Regained resonate with anyone else? I don't want to really flesh out my thoughts yet since neither book is fresh enough in my mind.

Synopsis:

Here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_Lost)

And here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_Regained)

[JWBear]

There are so many interweaving references - literary and otherwise - in this show. I have no doubt that Milton is one of them.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

There are officially too many things for me to remember. :)

[Disneyphile]

Ken's become quite the Lost philosopher, almost as much as he is on LOTR stuff. I keep trying to get him to post in this thread, but he still hasn't. :(

[JWBear]

I found this, and it made me giggle...

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff82/Master-Zik/bezc0k.jpg

[sleepyjeff]

^Excellent:snap:

[SzczerbiakManiac]

Though now that I think about it, my initial theory that being sufficiently injured prevents you from time traveling is shaky, what with Jin bouncing around while unconscious. So there's got to be some other explanation for Ben not making the jump.A friend pointed out to me that both Ben and John touched the donkey wheel. Maybe that has something to do with them staying in "real" time...?

[Ghoulish Delight]

Aha! That's what they have in common. Good call.

[JWBear]

They have several things in common.

[Ghoulish Delight]

They have several things in common.Yes, but that's something A) that they have in common B) that the 5 who DID time travel don't share and C) is linked directly to getting on/off the island. Definitely the best candidate I've seen so far for why the other 5 would time travel but not them.

[JWBear]

The O5 were not supposed to leave The Island. Ben and Locke were.

[Stan4dSteph]

Ergo, the 316ers landed on the Island in “current” time – late 2007/early 2008.If Locke was in "current time" when he was in NYC, it wasn't late 2007/early 2008. NY got rid of the Statue of Liberty license plates in 2001.

[Ghoulish Delight]

If Locke was in "current time" when he was in NYC, it wasn't late 2007/early 2008. NY got rid of the Statue of Liberty license plates in 2001.
Then that was an editorial mistake/decision because that is the correct timeline as presented (crashed in '05, 3 years passed).

[Ghoulish Delight]

The O5 were not supposed to leave The Island. Ben and Locke were.
I'm still hoping they tie everything back into a semi-plausible, practical explanation, not just a hand-waving "the Island wants it" mumbo jumbo explanation. I don't expect anything to be scientifically sound or anything, but I won't be particularly satisfied if it all boils down to mysticism. As such, there needs to be a functional difference between those that time travel and those that don't, beyond "supposed to".

[JWBear]

Yes, it was a production error. They happen.

And sorry GD... Crashed 9/22/04. Ben, Desmond, & O6 left Island 12/30/04.

[JWBear]

Just checked Lostpedia (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page). Best guesstimate is 316 crashed sometime in January 2008.

[JWBear]

I'm still hoping they tie everything back into a semi-plausible, practical explanation, not just a hand-waving "the Island wants it" mumbo jumbo explanation. I don't expect anything to be scientifically sound or anything, but I won't be particularly satisfied if it all boils down to mysticism. As such, there needs to be a functional difference between those that time travel and those that don't, beyond "supposed to".

Who said anything about mystical mumbo-jumbo? I just said that they were not supposed to leave.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Who said anything about mystical mumbo-jumbo? I just said that they were not supposed to leave.
Yes, but "not supposed to" isn't enough to explain why the flash didn't cause them to time travel. There has to be a physical difference between them and those that do time travel. Specifically, a physical difference that they both share, and that happened to Locke some time between the time he was on the island before and when he got back (since he USED to travel in time with the flashes). Leaving the island by turning the wheel fits the bill perfectly.

[JWBear]

I'm sure that having turned the wheel has something to do with it; but perhaps there is an intelligence at work in this. We still do not know who (or what) Jacob is, and how much control over what happens on (and off) the Island that he has.

[Pirate Bill]

...perhaps there is an intelligence at work in this.

There must be. The points in time they would jump to with each flash seem a little more than random. It's almost like Lock or someone else in the group needed to be in some of those points in time for some purpose and that the island (or some intelligence as you say) put them there.

[Ghoulish Delight]

If the series ends with "It all happened because the Island/some intelligent entity wanted it to happen like that" without some explanation of a mechanism as to HOW said intelligence accomplished it, I will be displeased.

[Pirate Bill]

Unfortunately I think there are some questions we're just not going to get answers to. The smoke monster being one of them.

We know Smokey is a security system and is somehow tied to the temple. We may even get more information about the origin, purpose, who or what is controlling it, etc. But I doubt we'll ever know exactly what it is. It's just magic smoke that makes a mechanical noise and I don't think it's ever going to be explained as anything more than that.

The donkey wheel. How does it work and what's with the freezing environment?

I don't think the numbers or the true purpose of entering them every 108 minutes will ever be revealed in any more detail than we already have.

J.J. Abrams has made it known that he likes unopened boxes of mystery. He got the ball rolling in that direction.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I don't expect, or want, every question answered. As long as we're left with some semblance of a sensible universe that this happened in that allows for us viewers to fill in the blanks ourselves, and not just a bunch of "It was fate to happen" hand waving.

[Betty]

I agree - although I would like more info on the smoke monster in particular. I don't need a blueprint or anything - but I want more then it's a "security system" made of smoke that sounds mechanical and appears to "look" at you.

[sleepyjeff]

Unfortunately I think there are some questions we're just not going to get answers to. The smoke monster being one of them.

This is the shows oldest mystery and the one that hooked so many people to the show........it's one thing to not answer a question like this in a short 2 hour movie(Cloverfield for example); the audience has not invested a lot of time and dare I say....emotion in the answer. To not answer this one satisfactorily would be a huge slap in the face.



The donkey wheel. How does it work and what's with the freezing environment?

I rate this as a mid-level type question....I am curious and want to know the answer but I wouldn't consider it a deal breaker if they didn't address it further.

I don't think the numbers or the true purpose of entering them every 108 minutes will ever be revealed in any more detail than we already have.

I think the reasons given as to why they needed to enter numbers every 108 minutes has been sufficiently addressed.....but as to why those specific numbers and how they are connected to Hurley winning the Lottery we'll probably never get any more answers.

J.J. Abrams has made it known that he likes unopened boxes of mystery. He got the ball rolling in that direction.

Because the unopened box, no matter how infuriating, frustrating, and maddening it can be is always less lame than the opened one;)

[SzczerbiakManiac]

I just realized that Frank Lapidus (the pilot) didn't touch the donkey wheel either....

[BarTopDancer]

I despise open endings. It's the main reason I did not like Cloverfield. I wanted (still do) to know what that stupid thing was, where it came from, yadda yadda yadda.

I'm really trying to prepare myself for an open ending to Lost, to not expect answers to the smoke monster*, beyond what we know. To the numbers, beyond what we know, to why polar bears were on the island and those who touch the donkey wheel end up in Tunisia. But I'm still gonna be annoyed.

We know that smokey can be controlled by Ben and is a security system to the temple. But what is the temple?

I've been catching some of the reruns on Sci-Fi during the day and it's hard to remember what has and hasn't been answered yet. Right now Kate and Sawyer are being held captive and Mr. Friendly just came out.

[Ghoulish Delight]

We know that smokey can be controlled by Ben and is a security system to the temple. But what is the temple?
Oh, that reminds me! I'm assuming the temple is connected to the giant idol we saw briefly this last episode. How awesome was THAT?!

I would be shocked if they don't give a little bit more insight into the #'s and smokey. Even if the answer to the numbers is something as simple as, "Those are the intervals that the time jumps happen on, so we use them as easy reference points," or even, "They don't 'mean' squat on their own, we just planted them to f*ck with Hurley." As long as it's something. As sleepy said, those were the 2 key mysteries that the show was built around, it would be ludicrous/lazy to just ignore them.

I don't expect them to lay out a technical blueprint of the donkey wheel, but I do expect we'll know more about exactly what it means to "move the island".

[BarTopDancer]

I would be shocked if they don't give a little bit more insight into the #'s and smokey. Even if the answer to the numbers is something as simple as, "Those are the intervals that the time jumps happen on, so we use them as easy reference points,"

They appear so much.

I do wonder if the numbers are the intervals the time jumps happen. I'm not patient enough to go back and watch prior episodes, but did it did seem that the pauses between jumps got longer, then shorter as time went by?

[bewitched]

why polar bears were on the island

Didn't they already reveal that they were brought by DHARMA for genetic and learning experiments?



I can't believe that they won't explain the numbers since they have been such a big part of the mythology of the show.

[Pirate Bill]

My theory is that the numbers are just self referential. Let's see if I can explain:

Hurley uses the numbers and wins the lottery. Bad things happen to him so he begins to believe the numbers are cursed. (We keep seeing the numbers pop up everywhere but that's just coincidental or people see what they want to see or the producers are messing with our heads.) He goes to Australia and ends up on the island where he finds the numbers marked on the outside of the hatch and are being used as a code to reset the 108 minute clock.

Hurley goes back in time to 1974. "The incident" occurs requiring them to enter numbers into a computer to reset a 108 minute clock. Hurley chooses to use the cursed number sequence because he was "supposed to." (This is an unchangeable time line, not the Back To The Future type of time line.) In order to keep the number sequence available for all generations to use he etches it on the outside of the hatch and records it to tape to be broadcast by radio (that sounded an awful lot like Hurley's voice on the transmission the Frenchies picked up).

Hurley's friend from the mental institution (can't remember his name) hear's the numbers on the radio broadcast. Something eventually causes him to go insane (possibly number and/or island related). He goes to the loony bin constantly repeating those numbers. Hurley uses the numbers and wins the lottery.

[JWBear]

My theory is that the numbers are just self referential. Let's see if I can explain:

Hurley uses the numbers and wins the lottery. Bad things happen to him so he begins to believe the numbers are cursed. (We keep seeing the numbers pop up everywhere but that's just coincidental or people see what they want to see or the producers are messing with our heads.) He goes to Australia and ends up on the island where he finds the numbers marked on the outside of the hatch and are being used as a code to reset the 108 minute clock.

Hurley goes back in time to 1974. "The incident" occurs requiring them to enter numbers into a computer to reset a 108 minute clock. Hurley chooses to use the cursed number sequence because he was "supposed to." (This is an unchangeable time line, not the Back To The Future type of time line.) In order to keep the number sequence available for all generations to use he etches it on the outside of the hatch and records it to tape to be broadcast by radio (that sounded an awful lot like Hurley's voice on the transmission the Frenchies picked up).

Hurley's friend from the mental institution (can't remember his name) hear's the numbers on the radio broadcast. Something eventually causes him to go insane (possibly number and/or island related). He goes to the loony bin constantly repeating those numbers. Hurley uses the numbers and wins the lottery.

:snap: :snap: :snap:

[sleepyjeff]

My theory is that the numbers are just self referential. Let's see if I can explain:

Hurley uses the numbers and wins the lottery. Bad things happen to him so he begins to believe the numbers are cursed. (We keep seeing the numbers pop up everywhere but that's just coincidental or people see what they want to see or the producers are messing with our heads.) He goes to Australia and ends up on the island where he finds the numbers marked on the outside of the hatch and are being used as a code to reset the 108 minute clock.

Hurley goes back in time to 1974. "The incident" occurs requiring them to enter numbers into a computer to reset a 108 minute clock. Hurley chooses to use the cursed number sequence because he was "supposed to." (This is an unchangeable time line, not the Back To The Future type of time line.) In order to keep the number sequence available for all generations to use he etches it on the outside of the hatch and records it to tape to be broadcast by radio (that sounded an awful lot like Hurley's voice on the transmission the Frenchies picked up).

Hurley's friend from the mental institution (can't remember his name) hear's the numbers on the radio broadcast. Something eventually causes him to go insane (possibly number and/or island related). He goes to the loony bin constantly repeating those numbers. Hurley uses the numbers and wins the lottery.

I think you've got it..........once you learn how to think in a circle this show is a lot easier to understand...:cheers:

[Pirate Bill]

I'm listening to the Lost Podcast w/ Jay & Jack (http://www.jayandjack.com/) (show 4.16). I've attached an interesting side-by-side comparison that a caller mentioned on the podcast. On the left is Ramses II. On the right is the statue from Lost.

[JWBear]

Hmmm... And ol' Ramses's legs are broken off right about where the 4 toed statue was broken....

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j184/darth_sparrow/Television/LOST/l344a18a30000_1_31434.jpg

[BarTopDancer]

When did we see the full statue?

There is so much to remember! :(

[Ghoulish Delight]

When did we see the full statue?

There is so much to remember! :(After John fell down the well. In the first episode that we saw that happen, they showed Sawyer holding the rope, coming out of solid ground, then they cut away. Then they showed the scene again in the next episode (or was there an episode in between?), this time, instead of cutting away, we see them look up and see the statue. Then they flash immediately (I think that's the last flash).

[Ghoulish Delight]

So I'm reading a biography of Timothy Leary. There are a lot of names in it, I'm pretty bad at retaining names when I'm reading biographies. So when I reached the period in Leary's life when he became a faculty member of Harvard's psychology department, I assumed the familiar name of a fellow faculty member and ally to Leary through his controversial psychedelics experiments was someone from earlier in Leary's life that I had forgotten about.

It took me about 50 pages for it to click.

Richard Alpert.

Interestingly, the real Alpert went on to become a spiritual leader, known as Baba Ram Dass, and taught, among several other things, Buddhism. With the show's many other references to Buddhism, I don't suppose that's mere coincidence, though I assume it's more simply a clever nod and doesn't imply that the character has any actual relation to the real Alpert.

Ram Dass was also apparently the inspiration for the roller skating guru disguise in Fletch.

[Betty]

Hmmm... And ol' Ramses's legs are broken off right about where the 4 toed statue was broken....

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j184/darth_sparrow/Television/LOST/l344a18a30000_1_31434.jpg

I wonder how many toes Richard has.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Holy crap, I think Pirate Bill figured it out. :eek:

Now STOP THAT, I want the series to be a surprise. :p

[bewitched]

I'm listening to the Lost Podcast w/ Jay & Jack (http://www.jayandjack.com/) (show 4.16). I've attached an interesting side-by-side comparison that a caller mentioned on the podcast. On the left is Ramses II. On the right is the statue from Lost.

Hmmm... And ol' Ramses's legs are broken off right about where the 4 toed statue was broken....

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j184/darth_sparrow/Television/LOST/l344a18a30000_1_31434.jpg

The decorative carving doesn't match up. Also, I don't believe that Ramses II was depicted with hair in the statue you've pictured. (nor does Rameses have pointed, doglike ears)



I think a better choice for the statue (which appears to have pointed ears) is Anubus, one of the Egyptian gods of the afterlife whose specific role was to watch over the dead and guide lost souls on their trip to the afterlife. Anubus is half human/half jackel (which would also explain the 4 toes) and carries a flail, which the statue appears to be holding in his right hand.

And how about this (which I just thought of while typing):

What if the island is the Egyptian afterlife and the Others are, in fact dead, ancient Egyptians (which would explain why they don't age; they are whatever age they were when they died-- it would also explain Richard's eyeliner)? The Egyptians considered those who reached the afterlife to be immortal. Looking up Aaru (the afterlife) on Wiki, it is often depicted as a series of islands (which I didn't remember, but hey...). Interestingly, the gates a soul has to pass through to get to the afterlife are guarded by demons (smoke monster, anyone?) There are several other Egyptian gods the statue could depict such as Bast or Mut that have pointed ears and are male (female gods generally had rounded shoulders; that said, I'm just guessing it's male) but they don't fit as well into what we know so far.

It may also explain why Ben killed Locke...so that he could be eternal leader of the Others.

Finally, I think it may explain why the Islanders can't have babies/die. In Egyptian mythology, whether or not you go to the afterlife and become eternal depends on the weight of your sins. If you have little to no sin, you go to Aaru. But what if you go to Aaru and then sin (say, by killing or purging a bunch of people)? Maybe the punishment is no babies in eternal world. As an aside, I don't remember anyone saying that the original Dharma people couldn't have babies (and as Sawyer said to Juliet, "maybe whatever made the Others unable to have babies hasn't happened yet"), we just see the 21st century Others as not able to have babies. Also a good explanation for why Claire and Sun were able to have their babies...because they weren't Others.

Now I want to go look up the hieroglyphs we've seen around the island to see if any of the symbols depict specific gods.

[bewitched]

Hmmm... (http://www.thehansofoundation.org/)

(The Hanso Foundation was behind the original Dharma Initiative)

[bewitched]

And before you ask, sadly I don't have anything better to do tonight...

This is likely where the idea that the statue is Ramses II came from:


* The statue may be in reference to the poem "On a Stupendous Leg of Granite", by Horace Smith. The poem begins, "In Egypt's sandy silence, all alone, / Stands a gigantic Leg". The poem refers to the fallen Ramesses II colossus near Luxor, Egypt. The poem is about the irony of power--and the end of powerful civilizations. Percy Bysshe Shelley's version of the poem, "Ozymandias," also describes the foot statue.

* The Colossus of Rhodes, one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World, snapped off mid-leg in an earthquake not long after it was built.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Repeat!?! Booo.

Stupid March Madness.

I'm glad I watched a bit of it though. This time I noticed Amy pull something (earplugs) out of the control box of the sonic wall. I was wondering how she could have been hearing perfectly fine up until then.

[Pirate Bill]

I'm not necessarily sold on the Lost statue being Ramses II. I just thought it was interesting that both statues have a very similar stance and were also broken off just above the foot. Another difference between the 2 is Ramses has the left leg forward but the Lost statue appears to have the right leg forward.

However, they both seem to be about the same height, hands down to the side holding objects, facing forward with one leg in front of the other.

Another caller (in the same Lost Podcast episode) mentioned that it looks like the statue is holding an ankh (which also supports your Anubis idea). Interestingly, Amy's husband, Paul, had an ankh necklace.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Another caller (in the same Lost Podcast episode) mentioned that it looks like the statue is holding an ankh (which also supports your Anubis idea). Interestingly, Amy's husband, Paul, had an ankh necklace.Yeah, the ankh necklace plus large statue equals Egypt. Which is kind of insane. WTF, writers? WTF.

[sleepyjeff]

Yeah, the ankh necklace plus large statue equals Egypt. Which is kind of insane. WTF, writers? WTF.

How far away is Tunisia(aka ~The exit~) from Egypt?

[Disneyphile]

Well, there is a connection with Egypt and Atlantis (http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/egypt/archaeology/weirdtheories/atlantis.html).

I'm still set on the whole Atlantis theory. :)

[Ghoulish Delight]

Lost is an anagram of Slot. The whole show is nothing but a metaphorical representation of the programming of a modern Vegas slot machine. The numbers are the seed for the random # generator. Each plane crash or capsized boat represents a new player inserting their player's club card. What the donkey wheel represents should be obvious, I'm not going to bore you with that.

It's probably at the Luxor, thus Ramses.

[sleepyjeff]

Yeah, the ankh necklace plus large statue equals Egypt. Which is kind of insane. WTF, writers? WTF.

How far away is Tunisia(aka ~The exit~) from Egypt?

Egypt was once a member of the Carthaginian Empire(Carthage is in Tunisia).

The Egyptian god of War((Charles Widmore told Locke "War is coming")) carries an ankh.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Poor Sun! They had me for a while there. The plane definitely time traveled (it went from night to day, noticed by the copilot), so they had me believing that they all were back in '77 afterall. But that just didn't make sense with the abandoned Dharma station. So now I wonder WHEN they actually are.

And, what is going to happen to Ben next. The other passengers still on that island know that Frank and Sun took the boat. Which means Ben regains consciousness and tells them. And when we saw him in the hatch/sickbay, he was in WAY worse shape than a bump on the back of his head. Someone or something messes him up good.

Good episode. The only thing I didn't like was that last conversation between Jack and Sawyer. The conflict there was forced and heavy handed. It just didn't make sense to me that the two of them would so instantly be hostile to each other. I understand it's a continuation of the power struggle theme between them, but in that situation it just didn't make sense for Jack to be such a dick. Or even for Sawyer to be so snide in response.

[SzczerbiakManiac]

I'm scratching my head as to why Sun didn't warp back to 1977. What was different about her?

[Ghoulish Delight]

Yeah, there goes the donkey wheel theory.

Hmm, she's the only other one who saw Widmore in person, isn't she....

[SzczerbiakManiac]

Interesting...!

[Ghoulish Delight]

Hahaha, I've just figured out where I know Caesar from. He's in I [heart] Huckabees, as the translator for the old lady singing about olive trees. Hahaha. I also remember his role in Three Kings, but Huckabees is definitely why he's familiar.

[sleepyjeff]

I'm scratching my head as to why Sun didn't warp back to 1977. What was different about her?



Hmm, she's the only other one who saw Widmore in person, isn't she....

No, Lapidus, Ben, and Locke have all met Widmore..........oh, snap, they're with Sun:eek: Nice catch maybe:snap:

Nevertheless, I am thinking Sun having had a baby may have more to do with it than meeting Widmore.

Or it could just be a simple matter of the Island sending people where they need to be to obtain a desired outcome.....:confused:

[Ghoulish Delight]

No, Lapidus, Ben, and Locke have all met Widmore..........oh, snap, they're with Sun:eek: Nice catch maybe:snap:
Precisely, thus my use of "other".

Nevertheless, I am thinking Sun having had a baby may have more to do with it than meeting Widmore.
I thought of that, but I'm still trying to think more in terms of what the ones who stayed with the plane had in common, and I'm pretty sure Locke didn't have a baby.


Or it could just be a simple matter of the Island sending people where they need to be to obtain a desired outcome.....:confused:Could be, but even if it turns out to be someone/thing making stuff happen, I continue to hope for a more satisfying conclusion that provides some clues as to the mechanics behind it all, rather then some omniscience/omnipotence.

[Pirate Bill]

Or it could just be a simple matter of the Island sending people where they need to be to obtain a desired outcome.....:confused:

That's what it looks like to me. Their encounter with Christian makes it seem like they have a job to do. (Paraphrased: "You've got quite a journey ahead of you.") Are they going to somehow rescue the "Neithers"* from 1977?

*Neithers - the name my son gave to the group of Losties stuck in 1977. They're not Dharma, they're not Others, they're Neithers.

[sleepyjeff]

Another theory(not mine, I read it on another board) I like is based on the orchid orientation video with the rabbits: In that video Dr Candle/Chang/Hallowax freaked out when a second rabbit, identical to the one he was holding, appeared. It was more than just a "oh no, now my video is ruined" type freak out.....more like a "oh no, the world will end if they touch each other" kind of fit.

So, we know that Ben is already at Dharmaville circa 1977.........could Sun be there? We know that Widmore(an other/hostile) did have business dealings with Sun's father(could he also be an other/hostile?)

[Cadaverous Pallor]

If Christian takes them to some lever and says "push this to travel back in time and save your friends" I'll be very annoyed. But...how do you travel back in time on purpose?

That poor kid who plays young Ben. Yeech. Enough with the lipstick.

It's occured to me that Sun gave her baby up to go find Jin, knowing full well she'd probably never be back. That's f'd up. Am I forgetting something there?

[sleepyjeff]

If Christian takes them to some lever and says "push this to travel back in time and save your friends" I'll be very annoyed. But...how do you travel back in time on purpose?



That scene has been bugging me a little;

1)Why would there be a torn and ragged Dharma sign hanging around in 2007? Ben and the others surely would have took it down back when they killed off Dharma......to me this suggests that something changed in the time line and the others never took over Dharmaville. Although, clearly, Dharma wasn't there so something still happened...I am stumped:confused:

2) How did Christian show Sun the picture from 1977?


He used a flashlight........:eek:

[Ghoulish Delight]

That scene has been bugging me a little;

1)Why would there be a torn and ragged Dharma sign hanging around in 2007? Ben and the others surely would have took it down back when they killed off Dharma......to me this suggests that something changed in the time line and the others never took over Dharmaville. Although, clearly, Dharma wasn't there so something still happened...I am
Don't know if they're in the past or the future, but I'm certain the plane and those who remained on it did travel in time, just not to 1977. Perhaps they are in a period between the purge and when the Others claimed the barracks as their own.

Or perhaps it was just a sloppy creative decision made in case it wasn't obvious where they were.

[bewitched]

Did anyone else notice the black smoke coming in the building when Sun was talking to Christian?

Also, It would appear that Ben has always known who (at least some of) the Losties are.



Nice catch sj, so I guess we know Christian isn't Jacob. I'm still sticking with the Jack is Jacob theory.*









*Subject to change with plot twists or per my whim.

[bewitched]

After reading E! online, who the fvck is the person behind and just to the right of Sun (right after the smoke enters) in the room where she's talking to Christian?

[Ghoulish Delight]

I'd have to see, but wouldn't that be Frank?

[sleepyjeff]

Don't know if they're in the past or the future, but I'm certain the plane and those who remained on it did travel in time, just not to 1977. Perhaps they are in a period between the purge and when the Others claimed the barracks as their own.



If they did(and I guess they must have at least a little since night did turn into day right before the crash) it couldn't be by more than a year*.....so my question as to why that Dharma stuff is still hanging around remains a valid one.



*1977 plus 30 years equals 2007....Unless we can't even trust the on screen narration

[Ghoulish Delight]

*1977 plus 30 years equals 2007....Unless we can't even trust the on screen narrationGood point. So:

1) alternate reality caused by time travel
2) for some reason there are Dharma sign still around, even though it had been Others' land for so long
3) wrong/misleading info when we're told it was 30 years ago
4) stupid production decision because they wanted to be sure it was obvious where they were.

My guess is option 4.

[sleepyjeff]

Good point. So:

1) alternate reality caused by time travel
2) for some reason there are Dharma sign still around, even though it had been Others' land for so long
3) wrong/misleading info when we're told it was 30 years ago
4) stupid production decision because they wanted to be sure it was obvious where they were.

My guess is option 4.

I fear you are probably right.

[bewitched]

Nope, Frank is standing right next to her (on the left). There is someone (it looks like a woman) sitting in the shadows behind and to the right of Sun.

[sleepyjeff]

Nope, Frank is standing right next to her (on the left). There is someone (it looks like a woman) sitting in the shadows behind and to the right of Sun.


I bet it's Claire....she was last seen hanging with her Dad, no reason to be surprised she's still with him.

[bewitched]

They need to make the episodes something more along the lines of 3 hours.


Someone on E! also mentioned Richard saying that the sonic fence couldn't keep them (the Others) out. That would fit nicely with the theory that the Others are all dead and the island is Aaru.

[Ghoulish Delight]

The Others seem to bleed a lot when shot, for being dead.

[bewitched]

Hmmmm, good point. Maybe the ones who got shot are are Dharma people who were assimilated into the Others as Ben was and now Ethan seems to have been? (And thinking about it...it seems as though there's a better than average chance that over the years more than a few people have been shipwrecked and/or crashed on the island, survived and never got off; which also makes me wonder if we'll eventually discover Mr. Eko's brother amongst the Others or hanging out w/ Christian.)

I dunno, but if the Others can get through the fence, there must be something special about them.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I dunno, but if the Others can get through the fence, there must be something special about them.
They could simply know the island well enough to know ways around it.

Or have really good ear plugs.

[JWBear]

They could simply know the island well enough to know ways around it.

Or under it...

[Ghoulish Delight]

So, with Ben meeting Sayid in 1977, and therefore likely to at least know who Sawyer is, I'm forming an idea. Ben somehow becomes beholden to the Losties, to where he's basically forced, once he grows up, to play things out the way they do to keep them alive and make things happen again as they've already happened. Probably not because he wants to, more of a self preservation sort of thing. Thus his pissy attitude the whole time, not wanting to save the jerks who are blackmailing him, but having no other choice.

Just a hunch.

[BarTopDancer]

2) How did Christian show Sun the picture from 1977?


He used a flashlight........:eek:

In that same scene there is speculation that there is a woman in the background, behind Sun.


I really want to know about the Others. Why are they considered hostile? Where did they come from? Why did Richard want them killed?

What is Smoky guarding? Where was it kept when Ben let it loose last season? Where did it come from?

[Ghoulish Delight]

In that same scene there is speculation that there is a woman in the background, behind SunProbably Claire, as she was with spectre Christian before (see above).



I really want to know about the Others. Why are they considered hostile? Where did they come from? Why did Richard want them killed?Richard IS an other, he doesn't want them killed. They're considered hostile because they want to kill the people in Dharma because they feel it's "their" island.

[BarTopDancer]

Probably Claire, as she was with spectre Christian before (see above).

Richard IS an other, he doesn't want them killed. They're considered hostile because they want to kill the people in Dharma because they feel it's "their" island.

I was posting and running before.

I mean why do the Others consider it "their" island.

[bewitched]

I was posting and running before.

I mean why do the Others consider it "their" island.

My personal working theory is that the island is part of Aaru (the Egyptian afterlife) and the Others are dead souls who now have eternal (after)life. Hence the island is the purview of those dead souls...the Others.

I think Smokey is the guardian of the gates or temples that souls have to pass through to reach Aaru.

There is what appears to be a woman in the shadows behind Sun just as the doors fly open and tendrils of what appears to be Smokey enter the room. As to who it is, I agree with GD that it is likely Claire.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I was posting and running before.

I mean why do the Others consider it "their" island.They were there first.

[bewitched]

They were there first.

Well, that too. ;)

[Ghoulish Delight]

Bleh to the afterlife theory. It's a good thought, but I will be sorely disappointed if it all turns out to be afterlife.

[Pirate Bill]

There is what appears to be a woman in the shadows behind Sun just as the doors fly open and tendrils of what appears to be Smokey enter the room. As to who it is, I agree with GD that it is likely Claire.

I rewatched it last night looking for this woman in the background and saw what you are talking about. Unfortunately, I think in this case it's a production mistake. It looks like a cameraman (or camerawoman) to me.

I have Lost saved to my computer. Unfortunately I can't get a screenshot since it plays back in a video overlay. But I did blow out the brightness to try to get a better look and it definitely looks like someone leaning over a camera with the camera resting on their right forearm, in a handheld shot sort of way. Looks like he (or she) is getting the reverse shot of Christian from behind Sun but wasn't hidden well enough.

If you can find a screenshot then crank up the brightness and you'll see what I'm talking about.

As for the afterlife theory, this came up in season 1 and the writers said that it isn't. Doesn't mean that dead people aren't walking around. It just means that the island is not where the dead go.

[SzczerbiakManiac]

Didn't the producers say early on that this is not "purgatory" nor are they all dead?

[BarTopDancer]

Didn't the producers say early on that this is not "purgatory" nor are they all dead?

Ya.

They also said it's not a dream and won't end with it being in a snow globe.

[bewitched]

As for the afterlife theory, this came up in season 1 and the writers said that it isn't. Doesn't mean that dead people aren't walking around. It just means that the island is not where the dead go.

Sure...crush my dreams of having figured it out. Thanks. A lot. ;)




(Thanks for the info on the woman. I wonder if they will just dismiss it as the production error it appears to be even after so many people seem to have seen it; or if they will build it into the story.)

[bewitched]

Didn't the producers say early on that this is not "purgatory" nor are they all dead?

Ya.


My theory being right or wrong notwithstanding...

Aaru is not a sort of purgatory in the general sense that we think of the word. It is more of a parallel world where dead souls go to have eternal life.

Also, clearly at least some number of the people roaming the island are dead, which makes me really hope that the guitar Hurley was carrying means we get to see Charlie again.

I wonder if the people assumedly stuck in 2007, who logically should have ended up in 1977, were "dead". Maybe Frank and Sun "died" in the plane crash but were alive on the island. I get the feeling to come back to life, so to speak, you have to have been to the island before. I know this doesn't explain Ben but I think he might, for some reason, be an exception to the rule.

And yes, I think about Lost way too much.

[sleepyjeff]

My theory being right or wrong notwithstanding...

Aaru is not a sort of purgatory in the general sense that we think of the word. It is more of a parallel world where dead souls go to have eternal life.

Also, clearly at least some number of the people roaming the island are dead, which makes me really hope that the guitar Hurley was carrying means we get to see Charlie again.

I wonder if the people assumedly stuck in 2007, who logically should have ended up in 1977, were "dead". Maybe Frank and Sun "died" in the plane crash but were alive on the island. I get the feeling to come back to life, so to speak, you have to have been to the island before. I know this doesn't explain Ben but I think he might, for some reason, be an exception to the rule.

And yes, I think about Lost way too much.


I have a very old cassette tape I made back in college. I used it to tape lectures and when done with a class I would tape another lecture over the top....finally, I taped some music on it(Shonna Laing).

As you can imagine, after all of these years the sound on this tape is awful....you can hear whispers in the background almost all of the time and once in a while one of the whispers will come in loud and clear as if it were part of the song.

Perhaps the Island is nothing more than that piece of Scotch tape one puts on the bottom of a cassette so one can record again;)

[SzczerbiakManiac]

Vintage DHARMA ads (http://www.flickr.com/photos/hotmeteor/sets/72157615214095434/)

[JWBear]

Fvck! :eek:

[Gemini Cricket]

I saw them shooting some scenes for Lost at one of the scenic lookout points here on O'ahu. Lots of honey wagons, so I get a lot of the cast was out and about.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Well, that explains why Ben's so sure Sayid's a killer.

Who the fvck, in that position, doesn't unload the clip into his head?

And I don't think I noticed before that Ben's dad is Laszlo.

And was that Sebastian?

[JWBear]

And was that Sebastian?

Yes. (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0761836/)

[sleepyjeff]

I wonder if Sun hit Ben in the head with the paddle at the same time Sayid shot little Ben.

Of course, since the incidents occured 30 some odd years apart that's not really possible.....but, what I mean is, I wonder if the two incidents occured, in some sort of universal mirror type whatchmacallit, together?

Also, I got to wonder if Ben has the ability to travel in time like Desmond does? Perhaps Ben was wearing a bullet proof vest and perhaps this little, innocent Ben, is actually older Ben in a little Ben body.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Island heals him.

[sleepyjeff]

Island heals him.

Or maybe Jack saves him.....wouldn't that freak out Dharmaville...."what is this Janitor doing here?":D

[lashbear]

Hey !! We can watch ALL the back-episodes on ABC.com now !! Anyone for a Lost-athon tonight at our place?

[RStar]

Anyone for a Lost-athon tonight at our place?Not if you're not home! ;)

Who is Sebastian?

[JWBear]

The guy in the chair:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_94wGm5Prdv0/SXJ0EkaBfdI/AAAAAAAAATw/pOjir93UCK0/s400/blade-runner-1982-38-g.jpg

[SzczerbiakManiac]

For a limited time (I don't know how long, so you better hurry if you're interested) you can download a free Geronimo Jackson song called "Dharma Lady" from the iTunes Music Store. I think you must have an account, but the song is free. Just search the iTMS for "Geronimo Jackson" and you'll see it. This song was hinted at on the March 4th Official Lost Video Podcast.

[lashbear]

Brad drove us past lots of LOST locations today !! :D

...we got to see Sawyer nude sumbaking !








...I wish

[sleepyjeff]

From episode 5(This place is Death of this season:


BEN: There’s someone… someone here in Los Angeles. Let me take you to them and I’ll show you the proof.

SUN: Someone? Who?

BEN: The same person that’s gonna show us how to get back to the Island.

KATE: [Standing behind Ben] Is that what this is about? [Walks toward Jack.] You knew about this.

JACK: No. No I was go…

KATE: And that’s why you were pretending to care about Aaron to convince me to go back there! [Points toward her car.]

JACK: I wasn’t pretending anything.

KATE: [Backing towards her car] This is insane. You guys are crazy.

JACK: [Approaches Kate] Kate.

KATE: [Sharply] Jack! Don’t. [Opens her car door and climbs in.]

[Sayid turns and walks away from the group.]

BEN: Sayid.[nervously] Where are you going?

SAYID: [Stops and turns toward Ben] I don’t want any part of this. [Turns toward Jack] And if I see you [points to Ben] or him again it will be extremely unpleasant for all of us.

[Sayid turns and walks away while the screech of Kate’s tires is heard leaving the parking lot.]

...and now from the most recent episode(He's our you...



OLDHAM: It's beyond your control so fighting it is a poor use of your energies. You see whether you struggle or not, one thing's for sure friend, you will tell us the truth.

[Switch to a marina. Ben, Sun, Kate, Jack, and Sayid are on the pier.] Sun had a gun to Ben's throat.]

BEN: There's somebody. Somebody here in Los Angeles, let me take you to them.

SUN: Who?

BEN: The same person that's going to show us how to get back to the island

KATE: So that's what this is about? This is insane. You are all crazy.

[Kate walks to her car, gets in and drives away. Sayid starts walking away.]

BEN: Sayid, where are you going?

SAYID: I don't want any part of this. [points to Ben] If I see you again it'll be extremely unpleasant for us both.

[Sayid turns and walks away. Switch to a lounge. Sayid is sitting at the bar downing a drink. A woman speaks. It is Ilana.]


Interesting:)

[Cadaverous Pallor]

From episode 5(This place is Death of this season:



...and now from the most recent episode(He's our you...





Interesting:)Am I missing something?

[JWBear]

Am I missing something?

The dialog is different.

[sleepyjeff]

^Exactly! It was a flashback to a scene from a previous episode...except, it wasn't;)

[JWBear]

I believe that it isn't the first time they did that (same event, but slightly different when viewed from the perspective of two different characters).

Are they trying to tell us something, or are they messing with our minds?

[Ghoulish Delight]

Or are they not reshooting, but using the best takes they had to string together approximately the same scene from different angles with no intention of changing them meaning at all, hoping no one notices?

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I did notice the difference, but I thought, yeah, that's what they have always done. In the first season we learned about people's pasts in piecemeal flashbacks that we thought went a certain way but were later revealed to be less than full stories. Sun has flashbacks showing Jin being mean to her and coming home with blood on his hands. Jin has flashbacks and we see him under pressure from her dad, doing the dirty work and coming home with blood on his hands. Same scenes, different angles, extra dialog, more information.

[sleepyjeff]

I did notice the difference, but I thought, yeah, that's what they have always done. In the first season we learned about people's pasts in piecemeal flashbacks that we thought went a certain way but were later revealed to be less than full stories. Sun has flashbacks showing Jin being mean to her and coming home with blood on his hands. Jin has flashbacks and we see him under pressure from her dad, doing the dirty work and coming home with blood on his hands. Same scenes, different angles, extra dialog, more information.


And that probably is what this is....but this time it wasn't just extra dialog....some of the words were changed altogether.

Can you tell I love this show:D

[BarTopDancer]

DUDE (the 2nd to last scene).

[Ghoulish Delight]

Boooooooooooooooooo!

I, for one LIKE th new Jack.

Horrible. Horrible episode. Horrible.

It's BEN! It's freaking BEN! "Innocent child" my ass. It's fvcking Ben. Period. End of story. There is NO reason any of those three should be going to any effort to save the little fvck. It's BEN!

But alright, let's pretend I overlook that utter, absurd, ridiculous, completely fvcking stupid bullsh*t that they for some ridiculous reason care about Ben simply because he's a child, never mind that he grown up to be BEN! Let's pretend I accept the retardedly simplistic "but he's a CHILD" crap.

Yes, let's pretend.

So they find Richard. And he says, "He'll lose his innocence, you sure?"

There. Goodbye to the only SHRED of justification for them wanting to save Ben. He's not "Ben" yet, he's just an innocent boy, right? Well here's Richard telling you he'll lose his innocence. So hey, no more reason to save him, right? No more innocence, right?

No? You're going to go ahead and save his evil ass? Seirously? W. T. F.?!?!?!

Bullsh*t.

There isn't a reason in the effing world that any of them should have wanted to save Ben, child or not. Period. Bullsh*t.

[BarTopDancer]

If what happened already happened (the cleanse and other events) then it's playing out as it's supposed to happen. They aren't able to change the future.

I wonder if this event took place before or after Richard and Ben met in the jungle a few seasons ago.

It was interesting that Richard took him to Jacob's cabin, and there was a shadow in there. I heard someone say he should clear it with Charles and someone else. Did anyone catch the other name?

[Ghoulish Delight]

If what happened already happened (the cleanse and other events) then it's playing out as it's supposed to happen. They aren't able to change the future.

That doesn't require them to actively do something. There is no logical motivation. They should have done nothing, and something else should have intervened to save him. For them to decide to save him is bullsh*t. Jack had it right. Don't do sh*t, if he's supposed to be saved, something will save him.


I wonder if this event took place before or after Richard and Ben met in the jungle a few seasons ago.
After.


It was interesting that Richard took him to Jacob's cabin, and there was a shadow in there. I heard someone say he should clear it with Charles and someone else. Did anyone catch the other name?
That wasn't Jacob's cabin, that was Smokey's temple. Just watched it again, didn't see a shadow. And the other name sounded like "Elle" as in Elle Farday.

[JWBear]

That wasn't Jacob's cabin, it was the Temple.

Charles (Widmore) and Elle (Mrs Hawking).

(ETA: GD beat me to it.)

[JWBear]

Oh... And was that a young Tom leading Kate & James to Richard?

[sleepyjeff]

Whatever happened, happened my eye......in the time travel debate between Hurley(who doesn't buy whh) and Miles(a big believer in whh) Miles seemed to be full of answers but Hurley stumped him with his final question.

I agree with GD....not a very good episode...in fact, I am going to come out and say this one was the worse one this year and possibly the worse one in the past two years....no way they go thru all that trouble to save a kid that is either going to live anyway (if they really believe in the whh stuff) or if not grow up to become the man who kills, tortures, kidnaps and basically ruins the lives of all those who are trying to save him. Especially had a hard time believing that Juliet, the woman who went thru some much torment at Ben's hands(who was it again that sent Juliet's lover to his death?) would do so much to save him.....and worse yet, deliver him to the others:rolleyes:

Maybe on re=watch I'll catch something redeeming about this episode; but as it stands now, Hurley/Miles aside, this one was a waste of valuable Lost time...imho.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Oh, and it's going to wipe Ben's memory?! Seriously?! That's the best they could come up with? Fvck, they might as well have had Ben build 3PO while they were at it.

[scaeagles]

There isn't a reason in the effing world that any of them should have wanted to save Ben, child or not. Period. Bullsh*t.

I disagree. Sawyer and Juliet are both quite happy with the lives they currently have and have made that very clear.

Kate would never had had Aaron if it weren't for Ben.

The process of getting to where they are sucked, certainly, but those three wouldn't have traded it with where they are now.

Jack, on the other hand, doesnt want to help Ben. Obviously Sayid wants him dead. Jin.....that one is questionable as to why he rendered aid.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I disagree. Sawyer and Juliet are both quite happy with the lives they currently have and have made that very clear.

Kate would never had had Aaron if it weren't for Ben.
None of which matters. Sawyer and Juliet's happy little life would be under no threat if Ben died in that operating room. He was beyond medical help and they would have suffered no consequences if he died.

But that's beside the point, because he doesn't die. That's a fact. Ben Linus grows up to become Ben Linus. So they can't kill him, they can't prevent him from being saved. That doesn't mean they have any reason to do be the ones that save him. There is no logical emotional reason for that. It's Ben.

[scaeagles]

Depends.

It would seems as if their reasoning is entirely the reason why Ben Linus becomes Ben Linus. Circular, but if they don't save him in that fashion, he doesn't become who he is. If he isn't who he is, they don't have the opportunity to save him in that fashion.

I do see what you are saying, I just disagree. I wasn't a huge fan of the episode, but it wasn't because of that.

[RStar]

They should have called this episode "And Kate knocks on many doors".....

[sleepyjeff]

They should have called this episode "And Kate knocks on many doors".....

:snap:

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Yeah, totally lame.

Why would the writers make Richard say "he'll never be the same, you sure you still want me to take him?" Why give them the choice, which then makes it even more stupid for them to say yes?

They tried very hard to show that Kate loves all children now due to her own experiences but I found it not only ridiculous but insulting to parents everywhere. The kid is already evil. He's already SET A VAN AND HOUSE ON FIRE TO BETRAY HIS OWN PEOPLE. And Kate/Sawyer/Juliette can't pretend these things from their past/Ben's future haven't happend, because they have.

Sure, Ben has to live, but it doesn't have to be Anakin-building-3po. They didn't have to Nuke the Fridge. Something else could have saved him.

Lame. :(

[Ghoulish Delight]

Actually, it's all moot as there is no way Sayid should have failed to kill him without something else preventing him from doing so. Fully loaded gun, point blank, no interference, and the trained killer takes 1 shot and walks away? Don't think so.

[sleepyjeff]

Upon re-watch I did find something worthwhile: That dock scene has changed, ever so slightly, again.

Also notice that in the background a boat named Illusion
:eek:


BEN: There's someone. Someone here in Los Angeles. Let me take you to them.

SUN: Who?

BEN: The same person that's going to show us how to get back to the island.

KATE: [to Jack] Is that what this is about? You knew about this?

JACK: No. No. I was…

KATE: [interrupts] And that is why you were pretending to care about Aaron? To convince me to go back there?

JACK: I wasn't pretending anything.

KATE: This is insane. You guys are crazy.

JACK: Kate.

KATE: Jack! Don't!

Compare to the quotes in post # 360.

[SzczerbiakManiac]

Shenanigans on Lost (http://www.danbirlew.com/2009/04/shenanigans-on-lost-892/)
Some pretty damming photo evidence relating to young Ben (aka Harry Potter Ben... lol) getting shot.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Sadly, I'm starting to not even give them enough credit to be purposely trying to mislead us. It's seeming more and more like pure laziness/sloppiness.

[sleepyjeff]

Shenanigans on Lost (http://www.danbirlew.com/2009/04/shenanigans-on-lost-892/)
Some pretty damming photo evidence relating to young Ben (aka Harry Potter Ben... lol) getting shot.

Wow, I didnt catch that one.

[sleepyjeff]

Sadly, I'm starting to not even give them enough credit to be purposely trying to mislead us. It's seeming more and more like pure laziness/sloppiness.

I go back and forth...some things seem like it would be more work to make the "mistake" than to not(like that ghostbusting scene in DOA where all the frames on the wall were metal when Miles headed up the stairs and wood when he came back down)......other things do seem to be just plain laziness(like the eye glasses in Frank's shirt pocket appearing and disapearing).

:confused:

[Ghoulish Delight]

From that link

or why Richard has been the same age since the 1950’s. Who cares?Considering that they've bothered to age (or un-age) Whitmore, Ben, Eloise, etc. AND the fact that Richard's lack of aging has been explicitly mentioned on the show (Sawyer if I recall correctly), I'm willing to be that isn't a "Eh, whatever" decission, there's clearly something behind that.

While this particular one (Ben's wound switching sides) appears to be a major mistake, most of what's said on that site is yet more, 'Why do they keep leaving things a mystery?!?!" whining from Lost fans. Ummmm, because if they answer all the questions, the show is over. Why don't you wait until the show is done before you start bitching about things that aren't answered yet. I personally watch the show BECAUSE there are unanswered mysteries. I may be missing something here, but I'm pretty sure that's the point of the show.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

Actually, it's all moot as there is no way Sayid should have failed to kill him without something else preventing him from doing so. Fully loaded gun, point blank, no interference, and the trained killer takes 1 shot and walks away? Don't think so.

Ben shot Locke at point blank and Locke didn't die. I toss this up to the Island doesn't want Locke to die. And it doesn't want Ben to die. Whatever IT (the Island) is. Bah.

[sleepyjeff]

From that link

Considering that they've bothered to age (or un-age) Whitmore, Ben, Eloise, etc. AND the fact that Richard's lack of aging has been explicitly mentioned on the show (Sawyer if I recall correctly), I'm willing to be that isn't a "Eh, whatever" decission, there's clearly something behind that.




Certainly......there have been some instances where Richards agelessness has been hinted at(like when Ben asked him if he remembered Birthdays) to outright mentioned as a matter of fact(like when Juliet said he was "very old").

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

Oh, and it's going to wipe Ben's memory?! Seriously?! That's the best they could come up with? Fvck, they might as well have had Ben build 3PO while they were at it.

That was actually the only thing about the episode that really bothered me - the memory wipe.

I give props to the actress who plays Kate, because I think it was her finest work. She started out this show with hardly anything to recommend her besides her natural beauty. It was well worth it to see her scene with Claire's mother. And I thought it was a simple and good reason for Kate to return to the Island after so much protesting.

And, like or hate Ben, I still think the verdict is out. If it turns out the Island is the most important thing ever, and Ben has really done nothing but serve the Island, then blame the piece of **** Island. Heh. I think I'll reevaluate how I feel about most of the characters after the series ends.

[Ghoulish Delight]

And, like or hate Ben, I still think the verdict is out. If it turns out the Island is the most important thing ever, and Ben has really done nothing but serve the Island, then blame the piece of **** Island. Heh.
It may turn out that way, but all the characters know at this point of decision is that he's the direct cause of most of their suffering and that little boy is going to grow up to be directly and indirectly responsible for the deaths of many people they considered friends. And even if they could see clearly enough to realize that space-time continuity meant they could in no way PREVENT him from growing up that way, no amount of motherly instinct can make me believe that any of them would be able to overlook who that boy is enough to take an active role in saving his life. Unless the island is mind-controlling them, it's nonsense.

[SzczerbiakManiac]

Just to make the conversations easier to compare:

BEN: There's someone. someone here in Los Angeles. Let me take you to them and I'll show you the proof.
BEN: There's somebody. Somebody here in Los Angeles, let me take you to them.
BEN: There's someone. Someone here in Los Angeles. Let me take you to them.

SUN: Someone? Who?
SUN: Who?
SUN: Who?

BEN: The same person that's gonna show us how to get back to the Island.
BEN: The same person that's going to show us how to get back to the island
BEN: The same person that's going to show us how to get back to the island.

KATE: [Standing behind Ben] Is that what this is about? [Walks toward Jack.] You knew about this.
KATE: So that's what this is about? This is insane. You are all crazy.
KATE: [to Jack] Is that what this is about? You knew about this?

JACK: No. No I was go...
JACK: No. No. I was…

KATE: And that's why you were pretending to care about Aaron to convince me to go back there! [Points toward her car.]
KATE: [interrupts] And that is why you were pretending to care about Aaron? To convince me to go back there?

JACK: I wasn't pretending anything.
JACK: I wasn't pretending anything.

KATE: [Backing towards her car] This is insane. You guys are crazy.
KATE: This is insane. You guys are crazy.

JACK: [Approaches Kate] Kate.
JACK: Kate.

KATE: [Sharply] Jack! Don't. [Opens her car door and climbs in.]
KATE: Jack! Don't!

BEN: Sayid.[nervously] Where are you going?
BEN: Sayid, where are you going?

SAYID: [Stops and turns toward Ben] I don't want any part of this. [Turns toward Jack] And if I see you [points to Ben] or him again it will be extremely unpleasant for all of us.
SAYID: I don't want any part of this. [points to Ben] If I see you again it'll be extremely unpleasant for us both.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Back in the days of actual film editing, a mistake like the wrong-side-of-chest gunshot would have been due to a flipped piece of film. Is that even an issue anymore?

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

It may turn out that way, but all the characters know at this point of decision is that he's the direct cause of most of their suffering and that little boy is going to grow up to be directly and indirectly responsible for the deaths of many people they considered friends. And even if they could see clearly enough to realize that space-time continuity meant they could in no way PREVENT him from growing up that way, no amount of motherly instinct can make me believe that any of them would be able to overlook who that boy is enough to take an active role in saving his life. Unless the island is mind-controlling them, it's nonsense.

I don't know. Conscience is a funny thing. I believe that one of them was capable of making a decision to kill a child in the name of Greater Good. And I can see on of them capable of making a decision to see an injured child and ignore the man that child becomes. Both are totally believable to me. I bought Sayid's reaction. I bought Jack's. And I bought Kate, Juliette and Sawyer's reactions.

I rather like that Sayid thought he was preventing something but instead is directly responsible for making Ben the person he turns out to be.

[sleepyjeff]

Just to make the conversations easier to compare:

BEN: There's someone. someone here in Los Angeles. Let me take you to them and I'll show you the proof.
BEN: There's somebody. Somebody here in Los Angeles, let me take you to them.
BEN: There's someone. Someone here in Los Angeles. Let me take you to them.

SUN: Someone? Who?
SUN: Who?
SUN: Who?

BEN: The same person that's gonna show us how to get back to the Island.
BEN: The same person that's going to show us how to get back to the island
BEN: The same person that's going to show us how to get back to the island.

KATE: [Standing behind Ben] Is that what this is about? [Walks toward Jack.] You knew about this.
KATE: So that's what this is about? This is insane. You are all crazy.
KATE: [to Jack] Is that what this is about? You knew about this?

JACK: No. No I was go...
JACK: No. No. I was…

KATE: And that's why you were pretending to care about Aaron to convince me to go back there! [Points toward her car.]
KATE: [interrupts] And that is why you were pretending to care about Aaron? To convince me to go back there?

JACK: I wasn't pretending anything.
JACK: I wasn't pretending anything.

KATE: [Backing towards her car] This is insane. You guys are crazy.
KATE: This is insane. You guys are crazy.

JACK: [Approaches Kate] Kate.
JACK: Kate.

KATE: [Sharply] Jack! Don't. [Opens her car door and climbs in.]
KATE: Jack! Don't!

BEN: Sayid.[nervously] Where are you going?
BEN: Sayid, where are you going?

SAYID: [Stops and turns toward Ben] I don't want any part of this. [Turns toward Jack] And if I see you [points to Ben] or him again it will be extremely unpleasant for all of us.
SAYID: I don't want any part of this. [points to Ben] If I see you again it'll be extremely unpleasant for us both.

I can't wait to see if that visit this scene again.....it'd be nice if it was exactly the same as one of the above(to prove once and for all that it's just lazy editing) or if it's blatently different in some way(so that even the casual viewer can see that something has changed).

[Tom]

Back in the days of actual film editing, a mistake like the wrong-side-of-chest gunshot would have been due to a flipped piece of film. Is that even an issue anymore?


Actually, much more an issue now than bevore. You couldn't really flop a piece of film because the two sides of a strip are not the same and it can really only be projected one way. However, now with digital editing it's easy to flop a shot with the push of a button. That was actually the first thing I checked in those stills from the episode, and while it's not entirely conclusive, I don't think any flopping happened. The second shot shows Ben with an abrasion on the right side of his face (his right), which I think was there before being shot, from to his father. In the first still, that abrasion isn't visible, but that side of his face is in darkness. It doesn't seem to be on the other side. Also the wound in the second still isn't just on the wrong side, but is farther removed from the center of his chest. I think it was just misplaced, for whatever reason.

[Pirate Bill]

I rather like that Sayid thought he was preventing something but instead is directly responsible for making Ben the person he turns out to be.

As are Jack, Kate, Juliette, and Sawyer. If Jack had operated on Ben then maybe he would have grown up to hate the hostiles instead of join them. After all, one of them tried to kill him but he was saved by a member of Dharma. Instead, Jack doesn't operate (was that what he was brought back to do but refused his calling?) and Kate et al take him to the hostiles where he is cured, memory wiped, innocence lost. Which is what was supposed to happen because you can't change the future.

[sleepyjeff]

More thoughts on What happened happened:

1) Back a season or two there was an episode(Cabin fever I think) in which Richard presented a very young John Locke a test.....one of the items in the test was a comic book(The mystery tales #40). This was no make believe prop; the comic actually does exsist and the very last story in the book is about a bridge collapse on March 31st. The engineer wishes he could go back in time to stop the collapse....the next day he finds out that the collapse hasn't happened...yet. In the end he does stop the bridge from collapsing. The title of the story is March has 32 days......WHH aired on April 1st(March 32nd);)

2) Everytime Jack crashes on the Island Ben needs an operation...what's up with that:D

3) Did Kate have someone watching Aaron while he slept two doors away? Seems kind of odd to almost lose your son in a grocery store one minute and then leave him alone in a hotel room the next:confused:

4) When Juliet decided to give Ben up to the others it looked almost like the idea came to her in a short sort of trance......could she have been given some sort of information from the past/future like Daniel gave to Desmond???

[sleepyjeff]

5) Which came first, the chicken or the egg?.................It can be said that the reason Ben went to such extraordinary lengths(kidnapping, mind games, imprisonment, etc) to get Jack to operate on his tumor was that Ben knew, way back in 1977, that Jack refused to operate on himself........but........the main reason Jack refused to operate on Ben was because of those very same extraordinary lengths:eek:

[Ghoulish Delight]

Except Ben's memory is going to be wiped.

[BarTopDancer]

I'm going to be disappointed if the conclusion of Lost is essentially "definition circular see circular definition".

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Every time I open this thread I get more and more annoyed at what awfulness has happend. The show was f'n amazing only a couple of episodes ago and now I'm down in the dumps about it.



I'm sorry guys, I just cannot buy what these characters have done, and even if I could, it means that I now hate these characters for being so f'n annoying and stupid.

[sleepyjeff]

Except Ben's memory is going to be wiped.

True....but the Others seem to keep pretty good records of anyone and everyone associated with the Island. Jack's refusal to operate on Ben may not be a matter of public(Dharma) record; but the fact that someone named Jack Shepard was there at the same time as someone named Sayid Jerral shot him will be........not a stretch to put 2 and 2 together for a smart guy like Ben.

[sleepyjeff]

I'm going to be disappointed if the conclusion of Lost is essentially "definition circular see circular definition".

Breaking the circular cycle may just be the whole point of Lost.


:D

[Disneyphile]

Did anyone happen to take a very close look (i.e. pause) at the large hieroglyph at the back of the lower temple where Ben encountered Smokey for "judgement"?

It depicts Anubis, the Egyptian god of the dead, who is kneeling to Smokey, presenting him with an offering, most likely a soul.

Also, remember when the woman asked Lipidus, "What lies at the shadow of the statue?"... well, take a look at this wiki entry about the Egyptian belief of shadows: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_soul.

This further reinforces my theories about the Atlantis/Egypt mythology being the basis of the whole "mystery". :)

However, I totally won't rule out the possibility that the island itself is the underworld. (Smokey being the cumulative energy of the harvested souls.)

Also, ever notice how Richard seems timeless (even perhaps immortal)... and he has a LOT of eyeliner... take a look at the heiroglyph of the eye of Horus (http://www.touregypt.net/godsofegypt/horus.htm) (king of the gods on earth), the son of Osiris (http://www.touregypt.net/godsofegypt/osiris.htm), who is the other Egyptian god of the underworld. Richard just might be Horus...

Which brings us to Ken's theory:

The island is the gateway to the underworld, where souls are judged, as depicted in the hieroglyphs in the temple, and as we witnessed via Smokey and Ben.

[scaeagles]

That was a great episode.

[Pirate Bill]

A couple new theories of mine:

1. Richard (who doesn't actually wear eyeliner, it's just his eyelashes) is what Locke now is. The island resurrected him so now he doesn't age. Locke now won't age.

2. The new losties (Ilana and friends) have been "infected" by whatever "infected" Rousseau's crew. They've been changed into others.

[SzczerbiakManiac]

Richard seems timeless (even perhaps immortal)... and he has a LOT of eyeliner...Just FYI, Nestor Carbonell's eyelashes are naturally very dark. He does not wear eyeliner.

[SzczerbiakManiac]

Bah! Pirate Bill beat me to it. :)

[Disneyphile]

Just FYI, Nestor Carbonell's eyelashes are naturally very dark. He does not wear eyeliner.Damn. :( (And, why the hell can't I have eyelashes like that?)

But, hey... the hieroglyphs are still definitely Egyptian in nature, and some of the myths seem to coincide with what's been happening.

[sleepyjeff]

That was a great episode.

I agree...I loved this episode.

[Disneyphile]

Ben is friggin evil. I love him. :evil:

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

Ben is friggin evil. I love him. :evil:

I think my friend Mike and I may be the only two people who don't think he's evil. Heh.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

A couple new theories of mine:

1. Richard (who doesn't actually wear eyeliner, it's just his eyelashes) is what Locke now is. The island resurrected him so now he doesn't age. Locke now won't age.

2. The new losties (Ilana and friends) have been "infected" by whatever "infected" Rousseau's crew. They've been changed into others.

Hmm. Re: #2, I think they're working for Charles W.

Charles W. who was, apparently, Wolverine when he was a younger man. Heh.

[scaeagles]

Hmm. Re: #2, I think they're working for Charles W.

Charles W. who was, apparently, Wolverine when he was a younger man. Heh.

I had thought that, but then realized they most likely would have taken Ben out. I think she is just a tough lady who decided to take charge after Cesar was shot.

[Stan4dSteph]

Those two new crashies definitely have some sort of knowledge of the island or something. That phrase was a test I think, to see how the pilot would react.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

I had thought that, but then realized they most likely would have taken Ben out. I think she is just a tough lady who decided to take charge after Cesar was shot.

Hmmm. That is a very, very good point.

[sleepyjeff]

Those two new crashies definitely have some sort of knowledge of the island or something. That phrase was a test I think, to see how the pilot would react.


I totally agree.....their behavior was by far the creepiest last night.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

So....all the other stuff Ben did was a-ok, all the other people he tortured or killed, directly or indirectly...but having his daughter killed instead of leaving the island, that's the one thing the island has a problem with?

The smokey bit was hokey. Did anyone find it compelling, or somehow emotional?

[sleepyjeff]

Did anyone happen to take a very close look (i.e. pause) at the large hieroglyph at the back of the lower temple where Ben encountered Smokey for "judgement"?

It depicts Anubis, the Egyptian god of the dead, who is kneeling to Smokey, presenting him with an offering, most likely a soul.

Also, remember when the woman asked Lipidus, "What lies at the shadow of the statue?"... well, take a look at this wiki entry about the Egyptian belief of shadows: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_soul.

This further reinforces my theories about the Atlantis/Egypt mythology being the basis of the whole "mystery". :)

However, I totally won't rule out the possibility that the island itself is the underworld. (Smokey being the cumulative energy of the harvested souls.)

Also, ever notice how Richard seems timeless (even perhaps immortal)... and he has a LOT of eyeliner... take a look at the heiroglyph of the eye of Horus (http://www.touregypt.net/godsofegypt/horus.htm) (king of the gods on earth), the son of Osiris (http://www.touregypt.net/godsofegypt/osiris.htm), who is the other Egyptian god of the underworld. Richard just might be Horus...

Which brings us to Ken's theory:

The island is the gateway to the underworld, where souls are judged, as depicted in the hieroglyphs in the temple, and as we witnessed via Smokey and Ben.


Great stuff there...brings me back to the very first episode. When the Losties were on the beach and the monster was ripping apart the Jungle.....many had something to say about it:



Shannon: "What was that?"

Charlie: "That was weird, right?"

Walt: "Was that Vincent?"

Micheal: "It's not Vincent"

Claire: "Did anybody see that"

Hurley: "Yeah"

Random Lostie: "It didn't sound like an animal, not exactly"

Rose: "That sound it made, I kept thinking that there was something familier about it"



Now on the face of it, it would seem that only Rose was offering us any kind of clue to what that thing was......but although I and just about everyone else dismissed it as the silliness of a child not knowing that a dog is not capable of making that kind of racket I think Walt may have been more accurate than we all once thought.

Jackals are, after all, members of the canine family.

Besides, does anyone remember Walt being wrong about anything?

He told Locke not to open the Hatch...
He tried to prevent his father from building the raft...
He even told Shannon to be quiet...

:eek:

[BarTopDancer]

I think my friend Mike and I may be the only two people who don't think he's evil. Heh.

I'm not convinced he's evil and this week's episode sways me to the not-evil camp even more. He didn't kill Rousseau, told her to run when she hears the whispers (I was hoping they would get more into what the whispers are), wouldn't kill Alex and you could see him rethink killing Penny when her son appeared.

I haven't liked him most of the series but I didn't like Juliet either and she's proven herself to not be horrible (thus far). I still want to know what happened to the children the Others took at the beginning of the series..

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

I haven't liked him most of the series but I didn't like Juliet either and she's proven herself to not be horrible (thus far). I still want to know what happened to the children the Others took at the beginning of the series..

I've loved him, evil or good, because he's what interested me about the show at a time when I was rapidly losing interest.

I would like to know what happened to those kids, too.

Also, when he warned Frenchie about the whispers, I thought it was more threat than out of consideration for her safety. He said, "If you want your daughter to live," which I took to mean that if Rosseau followed the whispers as a way to find her daughter, they would kill her daughter. I don't know. I've been wrong many times about this show.

[Pirate Bill]

So....all the other stuff Ben did was a-ok, all the other people he tortured or killed, directly or indirectly...

I'm having trouble thinking of someone Ben killed or had killed who Smokey would not judge to be bad or bad for the island. I'm not saying Ben was justified in killing off the Dharma folks or that they were bad people deserving of death. Just that it's probably what the island wanted, by Smokey's judgement.

Maybe Alex's death is, so far, the only "bad" consequence as a direct result of Ben's selfish actions.

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

I'm having trouble thinking of someone Ben killed or had killed who Smokey would not judge to be bad or bad for the island. I'm not saying Ben was justified in killing off the Dharma folks or that they were bad people deserving of death. Just that it's probably what the island wanted, by Smokey's judgement.

Maybe Alex's death is, so far, the only "bad" consequence as a direct result of Ben's selfish actions.

See, her death was less a result of his selfishness than some others, wasn't it? If he was doing what the Island wanted - not give up at any cost - than he may feel guilty over Alex's death because he could have prevented it. But he may have done the right thing (for the Island) by not preventing it. Whereas, when he sent Goodwin off on a dangerous mission to infiltrate the tail end crash victims' camp, Ben did so to separate Goodwin and Juliette because he was jealous. That was definitely selfishly motivated. He had to send someone, sure, but he sent Goodwin to be a prick.

I wonder if we'll ever fully understand how Smokey passes judgment. When Eko saw visions within the smoke, he was then killed. I wonder if it's how one judges himself that decides whether he lives or dies. Eko had respect for the Island, but perhaps Eko judged himself as unworthy and was killed. (Or, you know, because the actor wanted to leave the show.) And perhaps Ben, even faced with the consequences of his actions, truly believed he did what was necessary. Even if he is haunted by guilt and craves forgiveness. Based only on two scenarios, it seems the person being judged as some say. But I am probably grasping at straws. :)

Still wondering about the curious mechanical noise Smokey makes when it's out and about the Island.

[sleepyjeff]

After last nights episode one does wonder what Ben's purpose is now.....follow Locke around like a puppy dog? He's been forbidden to attempt to usurp Locke anymore and since it appears that Locke really doesn't need Ben's help finding anything at this point just where does he fit in?

Is he simply just another "other"? A mere member of Locke's flock? If so, why did he even bother coming back to the Island? Seems to me he'd have more fun if he just left Locke, the Island et al....take his toys and go home so to speak:

Maaaybe Ben should just YAGE:

How might that go:



Well I'm gonna go then! And I don't need any of this! I don't need this stuff, and I don't need you. I don't need anything except this and that's it and that's the only thing I need, is this. I don't need this or this. Just this picture of me and Alex. And this gun, the picture of me and Alex and the gun and that's all I need. And this donkey wheel. The picture of me and Alex, the gun and this donkey wheel, and that's all I need. And this Ajira water bottle. The picture of me and Alex, and this Ajira water bottle, and the donkey wheel and the gun. And this doll. The picture of me and Alex, this gun and the donkey wheel and the doll and that's all I need. And that's all I need too. I don't need one other thing, not one - I need this! The gun, and the black baton thing, and the doll, and the Ajira water bottle, for sure. Well what are you looking at? What do you think I am, some kind of a jerk or something? And this! And that's all I need. The picture of me and Alex, the gun, the donkey wheel, this black baton thing and the doll.

Posted by blybug @ http://www.losttv-forum.com/forum/forum.php


:):):)

[BarTopDancer]

Also, when he warned Frenchie about the whispers, I thought it was more threat than out of consideration for her safety. He said, "If you want your daughter to live," which I took to mean that if Rosseau followed the whispers as a way to find her daughter, they would kill her daughter. I don't know. I've been wrong many times about this show.

I did not think of the comment in that light. Perhaps it was a threat.

And what are those whispers? Where do they come from? What are they saying?

I'm having trouble thinking of someone Ben killed or had killed who Smokey would not judge to be bad or bad for the island. I'm not saying Ben was justified in killing off the Dharma folks or that they were bad people deserving of death. Just that it's probably what the island wanted, by Smokey's judgement.

Perhaps we have yet to learn what "bad things" Dharma has done. We know they lied to Ben's father about what they needed him on the island for. Maybe they killed puppies.

[sleepyjeff]

Perhaps we have yet to learn what "bad things" Dharma has done. We know they lied to Ben's father about what they needed him on the island for. Maybe they killed puppies.



"But you'll also have to watch out for mass murderers, serial killers, torturers and. . .puppy kickers."

~Daria to her sister Quinn~
Daria


:D

[JWBear]

I finally watched last night's episode




FVCK! That was good!


I love me some resurrected Locke!

[BarTopDancer]

The smokey bit was hokey. Did anyone find it compelling, or somehow emotional?

I did in a "this is your life" manner. I was so happy to not have to stop-motion the replay or hunt out the slides on the internet like we had to do for Eko.

[MouseWife]

Locke was awesome.

We watched it and then when my son came home I had to sit quietly while he watched it...so that I wouldn't blow it for him.
Loved when Sun saw Locke through the window.

[sleepyjeff]

The smokey bit was hokey. Did anyone find it compelling, or somehow emotional?

I found it a tad hokey myself.....kinda reminded me of Light Magic;)

[katiesue]

My theory on the same scenes with slightly different dialogue. Who's to say that it's not them but in just slightly different times. Like they keep getting sent back to the same place, and since they are the same people the outcome is the same but they don't say the exact same thing each time they're there. Does that make any sense?

[sleepyjeff]

My theory on the same scenes with slightly different dialogue. Who's to say that it's not them but in just slightly different times. Like they keep getting sent back to the same place, and since they are the same people the outcome is the same but they don't say the exact same thing each time they're there. Does that make any sense?

Exactly!!!

[sleepyjeff]

...and another thing;

The radio transmitting the numbers; when the 815 ers's arrived it was one voice; when the French arrived it was a different voice(perhaps Hurleys) and when 316 arrived it was a third voice.

No way these are production errors in that there are 3 seperate voices...it had to be done purposefully and for a reason.

Are we witnessing 3 Seperate Realities or are people constantly changing the recording? If the latter, why?

[BarTopDancer]

Are we witnessing 3 Seperate Realities or are people constantly changing the recording? If the latter, why?

I am watching Through the Looking Glass and the code that Charlie has to enter is the corresponding numbers/notes to Good Vibrations. They said it was programmed by a musician. Could that musician be Charlie?

[Morrigoon]

How many season box sets do I have to catch up on for this thread to make sense to me?

[Ghoulish Delight]

When you find out, let me know.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

I still think the different versions of scenes thing is no deeper than they want to reveal different things to us slowly, much the same way they did in the first season. Sun remembers her history one way, Jin sees it another, and when we saw Jin's flashbacks they involved the same scenes told differently. No big deal.

So let's see where we're at this week.

Kate has become a terrible liar. They did this to her a couple of times before in the last season or so, where she was supposed to be lying and was really obvious. I was as disappointed then as I am now. Remember in the first season when she was the kind of person who could dissolve her identity into new situations without a hitch? Now she can't even keep a basic secret?

Miles' flashbacks were awesome, especially pierced skunk miles. :D

I hope it doesn't go this way, but I keep envisioning the doctor getting wind of the Hostiles coming to kill them and using all his pull to send his beloved wife and only son off the island, bidding her to keep Miles away from the island at all costs, even saying that he doesn't love them.

[SzczerbiakManiac]

I'm wondering if the accident involving The Hatch (Swan station?, I can't remember) that results in The Button needing to be pushed also gave Miles his power.

[Stan4dSteph]

I'm wondering if the accident involving The Hatch (Swan station?, I can't remember) that results in The Button needing to be pushed also gave Miles his power.That's my guess.

Also loved the reveal of Bram and the "other faction," whoever they are. The "What lies in the shadow of the statue" people.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I'm going with my hunch that the statue shadow people are somehow connected to Richard. Would make sense with Richard's agelessness and the ancient statue.

[BarTopDancer]

Does the 5th toe lie in the shadow of the statue?

[BarTopDancer]

Someone on another board said that the guy who asked about the shadow of the statue was on the most recent flight and is currently on the island.

[Stan4dSteph]

Someone on another board said that the guy who asked about the shadow of the statue was on the most recent flight and is currently on the island.Yes, Bram and the other woman whose name I can't remember.

[sleepyjeff]

I'm wondering if the accident involving The Hatch (Swan station?, I can't remember) that results in The Button needing to be pushed also gave Miles his power.


Yeah, me too. I am also wondering if perhaps the Losties start to see the flashing time-travel light again during this "incident" and Miles, attempting to save his father in spite of his own belief that what happened, happened, grabs a hold of his dad's arm hoping that he will "flash" with him(not a stretch, since on previous flashes whatever the losties were holding did in fact come with them(such as their clothes, a rope, back packs etc).

This would explain why Candle doesn't have an arm in some of those videos;)

[BarTopDancer]

Watching Confirmed Dead...

How did they get the plane on the sea floor?

[sleepyjeff]

Watching Confirmed Dead...

How did they get the plane on the sea floor?

Never mind that .....how did they convince the world that a plane that took off from Sydney bound for LA crashed near Java.

That would be like a plane taking off from New York bound for Rome winding up in Tijuana:eek:


Turns out this was indeed a writing/geography error and not something mysterious:(

[Eliza Hodgkins 1812]

Yes, Bram and the other woman whose name I can't remember.

I refer to her as "That whorey bitch who killed Pullo's pretty but shrewish wife."

[sleepyjeff]

Daniel plays the piano.....I wonder if he knows Good Vibrations?

[Ghoulish Delight]

This is starting to look a lot like that episode of Star Trek: Next Generation, where they got stuck in a time loop and they kept going 'round and 'round until finally Data figured out a way to pass a message on to the next time loop that gave them enough of a clue to break the loop (like, say, a sequence of numbers).

[Stan4dSteph]

Poor Daniel, but why was he all "crazy dude waving a gun around?" That really didn't make any sense to me given his character so far, except that it served the plot point of getting him shot.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I think the direction they were going is that his new discovery that it might be possible to change the past had changed his attitude, made him more in charge and assertive.

[sleepyjeff]

This is starting to look a lot like that episode of Star Trek: Next Generation, where they got stuck in a time loop and they kept going 'round and 'round until finally Data figured out a way to pass a message on to the next time loop that gave them enough of a clue to break the loop (like, say, a sequence of numbers).

I think you're right.......of course, the creators of Lost probably never watch Star Trek;)

[Stan4dSteph]

Sobek (http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/sobeka.htm)

[scaeagles]

Last night set up an interesting final season.

[BarTopDancer]

I wonder if that was the original incident at the Swan or if them hitting the electromagnetic pocket was the original incident that required the button pushing.

Does anyone remember what the station is where Desmond turned the key?

[Ghoulish Delight]

A bit of a cheat introducing entirely new characters and story to create the cliffhanger. And having some ancient dude transmute himself into looking like Locke pushes things further into the realm of the supernatural. I didn't really love the finale and am less than optimistic about how much I'll like the final season. All of the characters entirely switching motivations on a whim is getting tiresome.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

"I changed my mind". Dunh dunh DUNH!!!! Um, lame.

"Why do you really want to blow up the island?" Jack/Juliet: "Because I'm heartbroken." What??? Not because you hate the goddamned island? Both of them have to have relationship reasons? Lame.

Quick, here's a flashback explaining why Juliet pushes men away! Ok, now immediately have the scene where she pushes Sawyer away! Ok, that's a wrap.

Open the show with the guy who ends up being Locke! Now, reveal that it's him at the end of the show!

They had all season to set up an awesome finale, but instead they crammed it in the last minute. Lazy, sloppy, and not at all effective.

The only moment I actually enjoyed was Juliet going down the chute, because I think Sawyer is at his best when he's losing something. Emotional scene, done well. An anomaly in a sea of WTF.

Oh, and Jacob?? "Here's a pen." "Here's a candy bar." "Talk to me for a second so your beloved gets killed." WHA? And not WHA? in a good way. :rolleyes:

This finale left a bad taste in my mouth, which I hope dissipates by 2010.

[Stan4dSteph]

Wow. Seriously a lot going on last night! The return of Vincent. Rose and Bernard enjoying their "retirement." Did anyone else notice in the scene with Kate and that other little boy that he was holding her toy plane?

The notLocke reveal was awesome! Locke box! So I guess he really is still dead then. Or not.

I think the statue is Sobek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek). Here's another source of info (http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/sobek.htm) with the following quote: It was believed, in some sects, that Sobek was the creator of the world.

Also I went searching online, since I was wondering what Richard (Ricardus) had said and didn't take Latin in school, and found that the answer to "What lies in the shadow of the statue." is "Ille que nos omnis servabit."

"He that will save us all."

[BarTopDancer]

The other people who were killed in the fire arrow fight were all non-speaking parts, so them all being killed doesn't really bother me. Easier to do that and focus on the real story line instead of making up random stories like they did for Palo and Nikki. I love that they showed Rose and Bernard in 1977 and being "retired" and Vincent. Hooray for alive doggie!

I was sucked in with Jacob and the dark haired man (good vs. evil?) in the beginning but showing Jacob meeting everyone randomly quickly grew tiresome. Why did he pick those people to meet? Is the dark haired man "the island" - is he the smoke monster, Kate's horse, Christian Sheppard* and notLocke?

And what happened to the kidnapped children and people who disappeared during season 1?

[JWBear]

I think I’m beginning to figure things out… There is a power struggle between Jacob and the other guy – the one he was talking to on the beach. (One of the other boards I read are calling this guy “Esau”; so for simplicity’s sake, so will I) There is something that keeps them from attacking each other directly.

At some point (after the purge?), Esau was trapped in the cabin. The ring of ash kept him from escaping. Ben took Locke to the cabin, thinking this is where Jacob was. Esau was long haired guy we saw; the one that asked Locke for help. Locke broke the ring of ash, thus allowing Esau to escape.

Esau is the one who has been taking the shapes of dead people on the island. It was Esau we saw in the form of Christian, Alex, Eko’s brother, etc. It is Esau who is impersonating Lock.

Esau got Locke to leave the island (and perhaps Ben too). When Locke’s dead body came back to the island, Esau took Locke’s form.

It was Esau/Locke that told Richard to tell PastLocke that he needed to die to save the island.

It was Esau that told Locke to turn the frozen donkey wheel.

It was Esau in the form of Alex that told Ben to do everything Locke said.

Esau has been manipulating Locke and Ben; and he used the time skipping to carry out his plan to defeat Jacob.

I’m sure Hawking and Widmore are working for opposite sides. I’m just not sure yet who is working for which side.


ETA: And I hope Jacob is the good guy, 'cause the actor playing him is totaly hawt!

[Cadaverous Pallor]

If Esau, a character they just made up, really is behind everything then I'm super pissed.

[SzczerbiakManiac]

In the beginning of the episode, when Jacob and Esau were on the beach, Jacob was wearing a white shirt with light pants. Esau was wearing a black shirt and dark pants. Ergo, Esau is clearly the bad guy because everybody knows the good guys wear white.

[SzczerbiakManiac]

This guy (http://www.danbirlew.com/2009/05/okay-i-admit-it-im-lost-952/) posits that Smokey and Esau are the same entity. It makes sense to me.

[Stan4dSteph]

If Esau, a character they just made up, really is behind everything then I'm super pissed.He's not a new character, we're just finally seeing him in his possibly original form. The scene on the beach appears to be from the Black Rock era, but from the dialogue it's clear that Jacob and Esau have been around for a while at that point.

[BarTopDancer]

He's not a new character, we're just finally seeing him in his possibly original form. The scene on the beach appears to be from the Black Rock era, but from the dialogue it's clear that Jacob and Esau have been around for a while at that point.

I was thinking the same thing. When I saw the ship I was thinking it may be the Black Rock. I hope they show more of that era and how the ship ended up so far inland.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

He's not a new character, we're just finally seeing him in his possibly original form. The scene on the beach appears to be from the Black Rock era, but from the dialogue it's clear that Jacob and Esau have been around for a while at that point.Yes, I understand that. They made that clear in this one episode. Has anything in any of the prior episodes alluded to a dark horse, at all? I sincerely doubt it.

"How do we reconcile conflicting motives? Create a character that was 'there all along'." Last minute, made up bullsh1t. I call Shenanigans.

[BarTopDancer]

Yes, I understand that. They made that clear in this one episode. Has anything in any of the prior episodes alluded to a dark horse, at all? I sincerely doubt it.

"How do we reconcile conflicting motives? Create a character that was 'there all along'." Last minute, made up bullsh1t. I call Shenanigans.

Huh? We've already seen him in Jacob's cabin. He's the guy that everyone thought was Locke. Speculation that the "island" was smoky, Kate's horse and Christian were wrong, unless he is also "the island". There have always been themes of good vs. evil.

I'm confused as to why you think he is a new character.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

Huh? We've already seen him in Jacob's cabin. He's the guy that everyone thought was Locke. Speculation that the "island" was smoky, Kate's horse and Christian were wrong, unless he is also "the island". There have always been themes of good vs. evil.

I'm confused as to why you think he is a new character.I'll try one more time.

Up until last night, the presence in Jacob's cabin was Jacob. Locke was Locke. Ghostly apparitions were either interpreted as Jacob, or rather, the Island's intentions manifest as Jacob being Christian etc.

As they've done many times before, they have a new head pop up to be the be-all-end-all answer to everything. Who is the ultimate adversary? It's Ben and the Others. No, it's Dharma, see they were here before. No, meet this guy named Widmore, he's totally it. No, there's this supernatural island presence called Jacob, he's running the show. No, check out this guy Richard, he never ages. No, here, meet ANOTHER SUPERNATURAL GUY, he was at the bottom of this THE WHOLE TIME, totally seriously you gotta believe us. How dare you say that there was no evidence of him before and that we just made him up last minute?!

Maybe it's me, maybe I'm just sick of being bait and switched. Maybe I am over getting Animal Farmed, with the words on the barn door getting changed every time I watch an episode.

How many other things need to be "revealed"? How many times do I have to be told that I wasn't told anything to begin with? By this standard they could do an ultimate final episode where everything we know was utter bullsh1t. Maybe there's yet another man behind the curtain behind the yet another man behind the curtain behind yet another....

:rolleyes:

[innerSpaceman]

So ... I've never seen a minute of the current season. Should I stop right where I am?

[BarTopDancer]

I'll try one more time.

Up until last night, the presence in Jacob's cabin was Jacob. Locke was Locke. Ghostly apparitions were either interpreted as Jacob, or rather, the Island's intentions manifest as Jacob being Christian etc.

They never told us it was Jacob. We assumed it was Jacob and that were predicting Jacob may be Locke or Christian. The show never told us this was fact.

As they've done many times before, they have a new head pop up to be the be-all-end-all answer to everything.

When did they tell us this? I was always under the impression that these were conclusions we came to, not conclusions the show told us.

Maybe it's me, maybe I'm just sick of being bait and switched. Maybe I am over getting Animal Farmed, with the words on the barn door getting changed every time I watch an episode.

How are they bait and switching when they never told us any of this? We assumed it, predicted it, sometimes correctly, sometimes incorrectly.

I get being annoyed with the show. I've been annoyed with so many unanswered questions. I'm trying to understand why you are annoyed that the show is going in a direction different then the assumptions and predictions the people on the interwebs (all over the interwebs) have come to.

Or else I'm totally a ditz and forgot where they showed us all this conclusively.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

So ... I've never seen a minute of the current season. Should I stop right where I am?Why are you reading this thread? It's all spoiled.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I get being annoyed with the show. I've been annoyed with so many unanswered questions. I'm trying to understand why you are annoyed that the show is going in a direction different then the assumptions and predictions the people on the interwebs (all over the interwebs) have come to.
1) I will never get being annoyed at unanswered questions. The point of the show is unanswered questions. When the questions are answered, the show is over. 2) It's not that it's going in a different direction than predicted, it's that it has introduced something that entirely invalidates everything we've known up until now. It's "not only did you guess wrong, you guessed wrong because we've completely hidden a vital piece of information that didn't allow you to even remotely come close to the correct guess. Everything you've learned about characters' motivations and relationships is 100% invalid now, start again."

In other words, I'd much prefer explanations that lead to me thinking, 'Ooooooh, THAT'S how that all makes sense," instead of, "WTF? That changes everything!"

So ... I've never seen a minute of the current season. Should I stop right where I am?Let me pull out my crystal ball and determine whether you personally will like the season, as well as the season that doesn't exist yet...

[Cadaverous Pallor]

They went to Jacob's cabin. Ben said it was Jacob in there. Christian claimed he was Jacob at one point.

Not that saying something conclusively has ever stopped them from changing the "facts" on us.

When they put Esau in the picture and told us it was him that was Locke, it infers that there are two supernatural beings at play when we only knew about one. The inference is clear, as JW posted. Even if you don't go that far it still means that everything is up for questioning.

There are twists when characters do things we don't expect, there are twists when new information is revealed about existing circumstances. This is NOT a twist, because this character was not in play for the last 5 years.

I really don't know how else I can put it.

[BarTopDancer]

1) I will never get being annoyed at unanswered questions. The point of the show is unanswered questions. When the questions are answered, the show is over. 2) It's not that it's going in a different direction than predicted, it's that it has introduced something that entirely invalidates everything we've known up until now. It's "not only did you guess wrong, you guessed wrong because we've completely hidden a vital piece of information that didn't allow you to even remotely come close to the correct guess. Everything you've learned about characters' motivations and relationships is 100% invalid now, start again."

In other words, I'd much prefer explanations that lead to me thinking, 'Ooooooh, THAT'S how that all makes sense," instead of, "WTF? That changes everything!"

I'm not picking on Jen, I'm trying to understand.

I don't see it as hiding a vital piece of information from us, I see it as us making assumptions about something, and we assumed wrong.

I don't interpret the finale the same way you two do, so obviously we have to agree to disagree, I'm just trying to look at it from a different perspective.

[innerSpaceman]

Why are you reading this thread? It's all spoiled.

Heheh, not with my memory, which is just that nowadays.

By the time the DVDs come out, I will have forgotten the 4 posts I read.

[JWBear]

The PTB on this show have been hiding and subsequently revealing important pieces of information from day one. It's what they do. It's what this show is about.

[lashbear]

It's OK, the finale of Season 6 will reveal that it's all just Jack's Big Dream Sequence. He'll wake up and go to work as normal, except he'll get chased by the smoke monster, which turns out to be a swarm of killer bees... but we're the ones who will have been stung.

[lashbear]

The PTB on this show have been hiding and subsequently revealing important pieces of information from day one. It's what they do. It's what this show is about.
Except the important pieces of information have (for the most part) been plausible - but now they're travelling off to cloud-cuckoo-land. We've suspected it will happen all along, so we shouldn't be surprised or disappointed, really.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

The PTB on this show have been hiding and subsequently revealing important pieces of information from day one. It's what they do. It's what this show is about.So if they "revealed" that this was the Truman Show on a soundstage with Jack as the star, would that be ok by you? Or the original suspicions that they were in purgatory, or in a snowglobe, or on another planet, or in a drug induced hallucination?

Again - a "twist" is when something that we currently know about is altered. A is pregnant. B had an affair. When you add elements that were completely hidden, that is not a twist. It's an "oh wait no".

I can accept a brand new puppetmaster. It's happened. Like 4 times. They were introduced a while back already, and the effects they had were obviously coming from something other than the people we already knew.

When the ship showed up and the team landed on the island, it was immediately obvious that something was fishy. The viewers did never believed it was a helpful team, even though the team was trying to fool the Losties. When it was eventually revealed that it was Widmore's ship it made sense. That is a plot twist, and a well executed one.

We are near the end of the series. You can't come out in the last 10 min of a play and introduce characters. It's invalidates what you've been watching. You build a story so people can feel involved, you don't just add and add and then it ends suddenly.

It's also lazy. As they said on the Simpsons at the end of the Lord of Flies spoof...."and they're eventually rescued by.....oh let's say Moe."

[JWBear]

It's not like they just made him up. He's been there all along and the witters have been giving us clues. It's just that no one read the clues for what they were and figured it out.

[Ghoulish Delight]

It's not like they just made him up. He's been there all along and the witters have been giving us clues. It's just that no one read the clues for what they were and figured it out.
For my taste, the "clues" were far too vague. For all of the other surprises, there was an obvious, specific vacuum in the story that they filled.

There were whispers and killings and kidnappings - so we meet the others

Desmond was stranded, being kept from his wife, and a mysterious ship was looking for the island and Desmond - so we meet Whidmore.

There is an abundance of scientific equipment, and strange things like polar bears - so we learn about Dharma.

There are mysterious happening on the island in the form of the living dead, smoke monsters, et al. - so we learn about Jacob.

But this new guy? His effect is so overreaching, and dropped in so suddenly, it's a total hand wave. "Hey, everyone, check out this guy. He hates Jacob....oh and by the way he's responsible for pretty much everything that's happened."

All I can think is the end of the Simpsons Lord of the Rings spoof episode. "And they were rescued by, oooh, let's say Moe."

[Cadaverous Pallor]

All I can think is the end of the Simpsons Lord of the Rings spoof episode. "And they were rescued by, oooh, let's say Moe."I just posted that....and it's the Lord of Flies, not Lord of the Rings. :p

[BarTopDancer]

For my taste, the "clues" were far too vague. For all of the other surprises, there was an obvious, specific vacuum in the story that they filled.

There were whispers and killings and kidnappings - so we meet the others

Desmond was stranded, being kept from his wife, and a mysterious ship was looking for the island and Desmond - so we meet Whidmore.

There is an abundance of scientific equipment, and strange things like polar bears - so we learn about Dharma.

There are mysterious happening on the island in the form of the living dead, smoke monsters, et al. - so we learn about Jacob.

But this new guy? His effect is so overreaching, and dropped in so suddenly, it's a total hand wave. "Hey, everyone, check out this guy. He hates Jacob....oh and by the way he's responsible for pretty much everything that's happened."

All I can think is the end of the Simpsons Lord of the Rings spoof episode. "And they were rescued by, oooh, let's say Moe."

AhHa! This breakdown totally made it clear to me where you and CP are coming from. It makes sense now and I totally see your point. Esau is a random character. For some reason I kept thinking you guys had an issue with 'young Jacob'.

[Ghoulish Delight]

I just posted that....and it's the Lord of Flies, not Lord of the Rings. :p
I really should wait at least half an hour after waking up before posting on a weekend.

[Cadaverous Pallor]

AhHa! This breakdown totally made it clear to me where you and CP are coming from. It makes sense now and I totally see your point. Esau is a random character. For some reason I kept thinking you guys had an issue with 'young Jacob'.Ah, cool! Sorry about the confusion. It's Esau that sucks. ;) Young Jacob, meh (good looking tho), but Esau, boo.

[sleepyjeff]

We are near the end of the series. You can't come out in the last 10 min of a play and introduce characters. It's invalidates what you've been watching. You build a story so people can feel involved, you don't just add and add and then it ends suddenly.

Quick, name one character from Jules Verne's The Mysterious Island?

You probably said Captain Nemo, a character who didn't appear in that book until it was almost......pause for effect....5/6th of the way in;)

It's also lazy. As they said on the Simpsons at the end of the Lord of Flies spoof...."and they're eventually rescued by.....oh let's say Moe."

I agree with this observation, the entire finale did have a sorta Deus ex machina sort of feel to it....from Bernard/Rose/Vincent being "retired" to Juliet changing her mind about an H-bomb based on a glance:rolleyes:


It's not like they just made him up. He's been there all along and the witters have been giving us clues. It's just that no one read the clues for what they were and figured it out.

Perhaps, but I sort of get the feel that the writers placed the clues before they really knew what they were clues for.



AhHa! This breakdown totally made it clear to me where you and CP are coming from. It makes sense now and I totally see your point. Esau is a random character. For some reason I kept thinking you guys had an issue with 'young Jacob'.

What if it turns out that "Esau" goes by the name Aaron?

[BarTopDancer]

What if it turns out that "Esau" goes by the name Aaron?

I said I see their point, not that I agree with their point.

[sleepyjeff]

I said I see their point, not that I agree with their point.


Oh, I know....just throwing out that possibility as I feel that characters(Aaron) story isn't done yet.

Otherwise, I actually do agree with their point......it's time to(and has been for quite a while now) start finishing the stories of the characters we already know and I don't want to see another single new face on this show....no matter how minor or major......until we find out more about the ones who already have been introduced ....such as Walt, Libby, Cindy, Kelvin, etc. etc.

[BarTopDancer]

So when did the statue (speculation is that it is either Sobek or Taweret) fall? And did the fall of the statue begin the fertility problems women were having? Or did the "incident" start those? When was Ethan born?

Not my original ideas, it's floating around the web.

Here (http://lost.cubit.net/archives/2009/05/5x16-the-statue-finally-settle.php) is a good link.

[Ghoulish Delight]

So when did the statue (speculation is that it is either Sobek or Taweret) fall? And did the fall of the statue begin the fertility problems women were having? Or did the "incident" start those? When was Ethan born?Ethan was conceived and born on the island. Had to have been since Juliette, who delivered him, had been there for 3 years when he was born. So unless Horace and Amy went off island at some point, which was not shown, Ethan must have been conceived and born there.[/quote]

[BarTopDancer]

Didn't Juliette deliver him when they went back in time? Does that mean that she delivered him even though she wasn't brought to the island until he was an adult? The time loop is going to do me in.

[sleepyjeff]

So when did the statue (speculation is that it is either Sobek or Taweret) fall? And did the fall of the statue begin the fertility problems women were having? Or did the "incident" start those? When was Ethan born?

Not my original ideas, it's floating around the web.

Here (http://lost.cubit.net/archives/2009/05/5x16-the-statue-finally-settle.php) is a good link.


Between those two I'd lean towards Sobek...Taweret is a female god I believe and Egyptian Goddesses didn't wear short skirts(they wore long dresses) like our statue...but the male gods did.

As for what happened to the statue to cause it to fall......got me, maybe the H-Bomb or maybe moving the Island or maybe the breaking of the world(no wait, that last one is a wheel of time thing...:blush: )

[Ghoulish Delight]

Didn't Juliette deliver him when they went back in time? Does that mean that she delivered him even though she wasn't brought to the island until he was an adult? The time loop is going to do me in.
Yes. She delivered him after she (and Sawyer, and Miles, and Jin) had been living with the others for 3 years.

[Gemini Cricket]

One of the guys in the cast of my show (Tommy McCurdy) was in 5 episodes of 'Lost'.
He shot at someone named Sawyer...
:)

[BarTopDancer]

Yes. She delivered him after she (and Sawyer, and Miles, and Jin) had been living with the others for 3 years.

But who delivered him before then? He was about the same age has her when they were doing the book club and the plane crashed.

[Pirate Bill]

But who delivered him before then? He was about the same age has her when they were doing the book club and the plane crashed.

Juliette delivered him. She always delivered him. She first arrived on the island somewhere around 2001, lived in the barracks with the Others until 2004, jumped back in time to 1974, delivered Ethan in 1977. That's the way it always happened.

When Ethan met Juliette in 2001(ish) he was meeting the doctor that delivered him in 1977. It happened in his past, but Juliette's future.

[BarTopDancer]

Juliette delivered him. She always delivered him. She first arrived on the island somewhere around 2001, lived in the barracks with the Others until 2004, jumped back in time to 1974, delivered Ethan in 1977. That's the way it always happened.

When Ethan met Juliette in 2001(ish) he was meeting the doctor that delivered him in 1977. It happened in his past, but Juliette's future.

Ya, I got that. I'm just not convinced that's the way it always happened.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Ya, I got that. I'm just not convinced that's the way it always happened.
Based on what they've implicated so far, as well as the usual rules of time travel (both purely sci-fi rules, and theoretical rules), everything we've seen up to the point of Juliette setting off the bomb has always happened.