Yes, we can.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Agreed with above. Mistaking pride for gratitude. Big difference. Pride should come from an active accomplishment of good things, not from innate states of existence.

[Motorboat Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

I am proud to be an American, in spite of whatever has happened in the last few years.

I think the word you are looking for is "fortunate" or "lucky", and they are not synonymous with "pride". Pride is defined as: pleasure or satisfaction taken in something done by or belonging to oneself or believed to reflect credit upon oneself.

I'm not sure you did anything to earn the privilege to call yourself an American, you just got lucky enough to be born here. To me, it's like saying, I'm proud I won the lottery.

ETA: I see others beat me to the punch.

[Moonliner]

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

I am proud to be an American, in spite of whatever has happened in the last few years. Why?

Because I live in a country where I can say that I don't like the government without fear of thugs knocking on my door in the middle of the night to drag me and my family away.

Because I live in a country where I am free to read anything I want without it being dictated by my government.

Because I live in a country that does not deny me access to certain parts of the internet.

Because I live in a country where I can have a say in who leads my country and who represents me in government. And while I am just one vote amongst millions, I still get to vote.

I would go on, but my time is limited.

But there is cause for concern...

wikileaks.org <-- Can you get to that site? No. Your goverment has blocked it.

[Alex]

It isn't a word that has distinct lines in colloquial use.

What is gay "pride"? Black "pride"? Why would I say to Lani at the completion of a marathon "I'm proud of you"? I can be proud of my good works and charitable giving.

Do all of those have a common element or are they just the same word used for completely different things?

For me, the closest I can come to saying I'm "proud" to be an American is in the same sense of "gay" or "black" pride. Where the meaning isn't so much pride in an accomplishment but pride in the act of refusing to be ashamed of something over which you have no control.

While I wouldn't really say I'm "proud" of being an American, despite attempts by others to feel I should be, I am also not ashamed. I'm not happy with much about this country but I also think it is, overall, at least as good as anywhere else and in certain ways much better (and in certain ways worse).

And to an extent, we are all active participants of this grand thing that is the United States and therefore a certain sense of participatory pride seems appropriate but for that I tend to associate it with certain things. I'm proud of X policy or Y action (particularly if I was somehow involved just beyond being within the sphere of jurisdiction when it happened) but it still seems to me like a really odd construction to just be proud of being an American.

Like I said above, for me the formulation is too much like saying "I'm proud I have a nose." The "pride" I feel at being an American is, I imagine, the same pride I'd feel at being German if I had been born in Germany.

But it is interesting because Lani's relatives were one who were so disappointed in their born culture that they actively sought to leave it and made that commitment and very actively chose to become Americans. So she and I discuss this every year or so, whether her being "proud to be an American" has a very different qualitative element than when someone else says the same thing.

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by Moonliner

But there is cause for concern...

wikileaks.org <-- Can you get to that site? No. Your goverment has blocked it.

You and your tin foil hat. One can easily go to that site. Just click here: http://wikileaks.be/wiki/Wikileaks

[Moonliner]

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

You and your tin foil hat. One can easily go to that site. Just click here: http://wikileaks.be/wiki/Wikileaks

Hey Mr. Head in the sand...

Your government, without opposing testimony, ordered an ISP to block all access to a web site and prevented it from moving the domain name to another server. Sure in this case there happen to be foreign mirrors. What if it happened to LoT because some foreign government got pissy about a post?

If you're OK with that then I guess it's my Tin hat VS your blind faith.

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by wendybeth

I would say I'm grateful and relieved for the things KB listed, but not necessarily proud. Things that make me proud are when people (and country) do good things, things that make me sit back and say "Oh, yeah- wtg!" I suppose I could find plenty to be proud of so far as my country, but in recent years I've been spending far more time cringing rather than glowing. I'm not alone, and tossing the tired old anti-patriotic mantle at people like me is not going to get anyone anywhere. It hasn't thus far, that's for certain.

Originally Posted by innerSpaceman

To me, that's exactly like saying I'm proud to be a white American male because I was so talented in arranging it so.

Why be "proud" to have the rights that are inalienable?

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Agreed with above. Mistaking pride for gratitude. Big difference. Pride should come from an active accomplishment of good things, not from innate states of existence.

Originally Posted by Motorboat Cruiser

I think the word you are looking for is "fortunate" or "lucky", and they are not synonymous with "pride". Pride is defined as: pleasure or satisfaction taken in something done by or belonging to oneself or believed to reflect credit upon oneself.

I'm not sure you did anything to earn the privilege to call yourself an American, you just got lucky enough to be born here. To me, it's like saying, I'm proud I won the lottery.

Sorry, I disagree with all of you.

I AM proud.

I am proud because I actively participate in keeping all of the things I said in my post alive and well. Democracy does not continue to exist simply because it is my inalienable right. It continues to exist because I (and you) actively keep it alive. Whether we do that by complaining about or congratulating our current leadership, we still accomplish the same goal.

Yes, I am proud to be an American.

[innerSpaceman]

I hate to quibble with Alex (wait ... no i don't), but pride in refusing to do something is active pride. Refusal and acting upon that refusal is an activity that can be viewed, if one chooses, as an accomplishment.


As Alex pointed out, "Black Pride" and "Gay Pride" does not mean sitting around feeling darned good to be colored and/or queer, and so pleased that you arranged to be born that way.

[Kevy Baby]

Originally Posted by Moonliner

Hey Mr. Head in the sand...

Your government, without opposing testimony, ordered an ISP to block all access to a web site and prevented it from moving the domain name to another server. Sure in this case there happen to be foreign mirrors. What if it happened to LoT because some foreign government got pissy about a post?

If you're OK with that then I guess it's my Tin hat VS your blind faith.

Without reading the entire history of the whys and whatfors, I cannot argue with nor corroborate the claims. And I have no intention to. No system is perfect: you will find holes in it.

Besides, the site was taken down because they were posting BANKING DOCUMENTS with personal information. From what I can read of the one story, it appears that these documents were obtained illegally (they were not public documents). The site refused to take down the illegally acquired documents, so the court was not only right in allowing this site from being taken down but was (IMO) obligated top do so.

I may be reading a little more into the article than is actually there, but I feel confident that I am pretty close.

[BarTopDancer]

I am grateful to have been born in a country to which we have many of the freedoms that Kevy outlined for us. I am ashamed of the actions of our government and some of our population at home and abroad.

Here's how my thinking has changed over the years:

At 17 I received Canadian citizenship (I have dual). I didn't want it, didn't see any reason to have it, I was American, period. I have no identification with Canada other than my mom being born there. Mom's reasoning (foresight?) was that some day I may want to get a Canadian passport, it maybe safer traveling to Europe with it. Maybe one day I'd want to move there, etc...

Fast forward about 10 years (or 3 years ago). I am glad I have an option to get a Canadian passport. American's aren't looked that fondly upon overseas these days. I am glad I am able to move there without much hassle if I wanted to (I don't). Will I get a Canadian passport? Considering I am going to get an American one in a few days, probably not. But I am grateful to have the opportunity to do so if I wanted.

I am ashamed of our national reputation overseas. I am ashamed of what our government has done in and to Iraq. I am ashamed that freedoms have been eroded away at home. I am ashamed of how my countrymen act overseas. The sense of entitlement that this country has as a whole makes me nauseous. Am I going to move? No. If I were I would have done it already.

I am grateful to live in a nation that allows me to be ashamed of its governments actions. I hope we begin to do good, that our entitlement goes away and this country again becomes somewhere to be proud to be a part of.