WTF Stories of the Week

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Disneyphile

I think someone who is in shock over someone dying is not exactly going to be thinking calmly enough to "react appropriately" to a police officer. Shock and grief can completely override and cloud rational thought.

That may be the case. But as a police office, you don't have the luxury of determining who is being irrational for the right reasons and who is being irrational for the wrong reasons. If someone is acting like that, your training is, rightly, to be cautious and take control of the situation. It's unfortunate for the family, but then maybe they should have been obeying traffic laws.

[Disneyphile]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

That may be the case. But as a police office, you don't have the luxury of determining who is being irrational for the right reasons and who is being irrational for the wrong reasons. If someone is acting like that, your training is, rightly, to be cautious and take control of the situation. It's unfortunate for the family, but then maybe they should have been obeying traffic laws.

I have no problem with him pulling the gun for caution, but to waste time on a lecture, etc. after he was informed about the situation was uncalled for. If he didn't believe him, he could have followed them into the hospital and witnessed it himself.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Disneyphile

I have no problem with him pulling the gun for caution, but to waste time on a lecture, etc. after he was informed about the situation was uncalled for. If he didn't believe him, he could have followed them into the hospital and witnessed it himself.

Have you watched the video? The one who was wasting time was Moats, who instead of, say, handing the office ID when asked, kept arguing. If he had simply followed the officer's instructions, it would have been over in a couple minutes, and I bet if he had said, "Could you make it quick," while handing over his ID as asked the officer would have done exactly that. But if you are going to refuse to cooperate at every step, then under what obligation is the officer to cooperate with you? There is nothing in that video that gives me sympathy for Moats. He is angry, aggressive, argumentative, and rude through the entire thing, when all he needed to do was listen to what he was being told instructed to do.

[Disneyphile]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

He is angry, aggressive, argumentative, and rude through the entire thing, when all he needed to do was listen to what he was being told instructed to do.

All traits of irrationality.

When faced with that kind of emergency/shock/grief, would you stay calm and do as you're told?

Have you been in that kind of situation?

I probably would have flat-out punched a cop at the time my mom was in hospice. I wouldn't have even noticed I was doing it.

And, I would have probably been condemned by people, because in our society, open grief is considered inappropriate, rather than a call for compassion, patience, and understanding.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Disneyphile

When faced with that kind of emergency/shock/grief, would you stay calm and do as you're told?

Yes, but I'm wired weirdly.

And, I would have probably been condemned by people, because in our society, open grief is considered inappropriate, rather than a call for compassion, patience, and understanding.

I don't know that I would particularly condemn you but I wouldn't condemn the police officer either for arresting you and you then being punished appropriately.

I have no problem with open grief. But just like with open anger, open love, open loathing, open macrame, the fact that you are experiencing a strong nearly uncontrollable emotion does not give you carte blanche to behave however you want without consequences.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Disneyphile

All traits of irrationality.

When faced with that kind of emergency/shock/grief, would you stay calm and do as you're told?

What I would do is irrelevant. IF I were to act like that in that situation, I would expect the officer to react exactly the same. An officer CANNOT take the word of someone acting irrationally at face value, that could put their life in danger. The fact that the man's decision to not cooperate stemmed from heightened emotion doesn't change the fact that an officer's correct course of action in that case is to treat someone not following his instructions as possibly dangerous. And at no time during the process did Moats give the officer any indication he was anything but still irrational.

Your "once the situation was clear, the officer should have calmed down" argument goes both ways. Once the initial moment of irrationality was over, Moats should have taken a breath and cooperated. Instead he chose to remain argumentative for 13 minutes. Plus, there is a big difference between someone who is distraught and not thinking clearly, vs. someone who is distraught and acting aggressively. An officer is going to proceed with far more caution with the latter.

[Snowflake]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Plus, there is a big difference between someone who is distraught and not thinking clearly, vs. someone who is distraught and acting aggressively. An officer is going to proceed with far more caution with the latter.

You're completely right there and had I viewed the video, it would have been apparent. Blame on both sides.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Disneyphile

I probably would have flat-out punched a cop at the time my mom was in hospice. I wouldn't have even noticed I was doing it.

And when you are subsequently arrested for assault on a police officer, would you expect to be let off?

[Disneyphile]

Originally Posted by katiesue

Nothing wrong with being grief stricken. But if you're so upset you can't think rationally, then you shouldn't be driving a car.

If you got a call that Madz was in taken to the hospital in critical condition, would you be calm and rational enough to call someone and ask them to drive you?

Originally Posted by Kevy Baby

Also the traits of someone strung out on any number of drugs.

I'm sorry. I missed that part of the article where they said he was under the influence. What drugs was he found with? I don't have time to read through it again.

If you would have punched a cop doing his job, I wouldn't give you a lot of sympathy. Your own grief is not an excuse to break the law and assault someone; ESPECIALLY law enforcement.

Again, what would you do if it were you in this situation?

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

And when you are subsequently arrested for assault on a police officer, would you expect to be let off?

Nope. However, I would expect an officer to actually listen to me first and assist from there, but if he stood in my way.... When someone is grief-stricken, it is pretty damned apparent that they're not making it up as an excuse just to run red lights.

Sorry that I have compassion and a tendency to lean towards the side of someone who is losing/lost someone.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by Disneyphile

Nope. However, I would expect an officer to actually listen to me first and assist from there. When someone is grief-stricken, it is pretty damned apparent that they're not making it up as an excuse just to run red lights.

The problem is, as Kevy pointed out, the difference between someone who is irrational because they're grief stricken, and irrational because of some other reason (e.g, on drugs, hates cops, is pissed at his wife for making him late to his appointment for a regular checkup) is not particularly apparent when someone is rushing out of a car, aggressively approaching you and yelling. A cop HAS to treat them all the same, there is no other option. And until someone calms down and is able to rationally explain what's going on, the cop treats them as an irrational person. They can't afford to differentiate between types of irrationality.